Summit X review up!

[repman]

I saw that in my search ( very funny) but where are the pictures of the real deal?

 

[User211]

Though JonFo and I differ in our approach, I do agree that a treated room will always outperform an untreated room, no matter what kind of speakers you have. Some rooms untreated are better than others, due to dimensions and construction, but I've never heard a system that couldn't be dramatically improved by at least some room treatments, especially in the areas of imaging, inner detail and especially bass performance.

That said, I have been in treated rooms and been unimpressed. I also believe a lot of people will buy room treatments, with no clue as to the effect they will have. Many a time they'll buy the wrong one. To do it properly does require some expertise. And time and effort. And I think JonFo's posts have been great for those interested.

Just because you've heard a lot of the world's best hifi gear at some shows, doesn't mean you have any idea of what this gear is truly capable of. I've heard all the gear you have at plenty of shows and it's a pretty pale indication, especially with the better, more resolving gear. Lousy hotel rooms and tradeshow booths are just that. It's a testament to the abilities of most manufacturers setup skills that they can get the level of sound they do at most shows.

I know. Must have said it myself a few times here. However, there are some shows that do have great rooms (Hong Kong, for instance - sparsely populated in many of them too). No room excuses there, in my view. More a choice of music problem

If at the end of the day, you think what you have sounds better than 95% of the world's finest gear, why bother changing anything? Sounds like you already have nirvana.

I didn't say that, Jeff. Most of the gear I hear is not the world's finest. Though as you well know, I have heard a lot of the best - actually far more than I have ever posted here.

I guarantee you are going to have the same issues with Apogees in your room that you are having with ML. The acoustic properties of your room aren't going to change with your speakers.

What room issues do I have? You haven't been in here! Practically, it's too narrow, and too small. But hey, work with what you have. It's not the biggest room in the house by a long shot, but it IS dedicated.

And I'm really curious to see your luck driving those speakers with a pair of SET's..... Good luck there pal! I'll bet a few pints of your favorite whatever that you're changing amps within a few weeks of getting the Apogees.

Showed Graz the amp spec. He said they'd work all the way. I think he knows them a bit better... however, I am going to try them with 'em before I buy them. They probably are the world's most powerful 211 based SETs.

All that being said, they are great speakers. I loved mine....

Good - I'm hoping I will too. Now for some music and a beer.

 

[tonepub]

Well, best of luck, but every room has issues.

If you'd like to hear what's really going on in your room, take a small pair of bookshelf speakers, play them in your room and then move them outdoors...

Big diff.

It's all a matter of managing what's in your room as best you can. Some speakers will play to the strengths and others will not.

There's really no such thing as a "more powerful" 211 SE amp. The tube is capable of about 35-50 watts, that's it. Nothing will make it more powerful, as that is the limitation of the tube. A bigger power supply might give it a little bit more dynamics, but you aren't going to get more power.

I know the new Graz designs are supposed to be more efficient and that will help, but due to the high output impedance of an SE amp, I'll be curious to see how that works out for you....

Again, best of luck! As always, it will be fun to see what you come up with.

 

[Rich]

I saw that in my search ( very funny) but where are the pictures of the real deal?

Repman,

I have not posted my system yet. *Hangs head in shame*

I keep thinking I am going to find the time to finish up a couple of things that are bothering me and then do the photography so I can get it posted, but it just doesn't seem to happen. I have given up on promising it or apologizing for it. I will get it posted one of these days. But there are a few other projects that my wife has placed in front of that, and I just can't seem to find enough free time. Probably because I spend too much time on this computer.

But to give you a basic idea of the acoustic setup, my room is 14' wide by 19' long by 9' tall. Every wall/wall corner has a Real Traps corner bass trap vertically mounted midway between the floor and ceiling, with a tri-corner trap above and below it. I also have a high frequency mini-trap mounted four inches off the wall behind each main speaker, and one mounted horizontally behind the center channel, just below the projection screen. I also have an RFZ trap located on each of the side walls at the first reflection points, and two micro traps that are not mounted and can be moved around wherever I think I might need them.

 

[jfm]

Thanks for the link to your review, Jeff, good job as usual.

About room treatments and MLs...

Just wanted to link this interesting article about when Gayle Sanders first encountered room treatments that were so extensive as to dampen the backwave.

Said Gayle, "That whole experience has altered the way I think. I used to depend upon the backwave, but absorbing it showed me that we can free ourselves from it. We can start to work closer to that back wall as long as we can emphasize that midfield energy."

Here's the link to that article in the Stereophile archives:
California Brisson and the Soundroom of Doom

 

[repman]

Repman,

I have not posted my system yet. *Hangs head in shame*

I keep thinking I am going to find the time to finish up a couple of things that are bothering me and then do the photography so I can get it posted, but it just doesn't seem to happen. I have given up on promising it or apologizing for it. I will get it posted one of these days. But there are a few other projects that my wife has placed in front of that, and I just can't seem to find enough free time. Probably because I spend too much time on this computer.

But to give you a basic idea of the acoustic setup, my room is 14' wide by 19' long by 9' tall. Every wall/wall corner has a Real Traps corner bass trap vertically mounted midway between the floor and ceiling, with a tri-corner trap above and below it. I also have a high frequency mini-trap mounted four inches off the wall behind each main speaker, and one mounted horizontally behind the center channel, just below the projection screen. I also have an RFZ trap located on each of the side walls at the first reflection points, and two micro traps that are not mounted and can be moved around wherever I think I might need them.

Thanks Rich you painted a vivid picture in my mind. sounds like you did a first rate job on your room I look forward to seeing the pictures when you get it just as you like it for the camera.

I can only say that room treatments have made a world of difference with my mediocre system it now sounds like music , I cannot imagine a room that would not benefit from treatments especially the corners.
It has made a world of difference in my room from a smeared mess to a detailed layered soundstage where instruments and vocals appear out of space

 

[User211]

Well, best of luck, but every room has issues.

If you'd like to hear what's really going on in your room, take a small pair of bookshelf speakers, play them in your room and then move them outdoors...

Big diff.

It's all a matter of managing what's in your room as best you can. Some speakers will play to the strengths and others will not.

There's really no such thing as a "more powerful" 211 SE amp. The tube is capable of about 35-50 watts, that's it. Nothing will make it more powerful, as that is the limitation of the tube. A bigger power supply might give it a little bit more dynamics, but you aren't going to get more power.

I know the new Graz designs are supposed to be more efficient and that will help, but due to the high output impedance of an SE amp, I'll be curious to see how that works out for you....

Again, best of luck! As always, it will be fun to see what you come up with.

Check my system page, Jeff. There's a photo of the spec. They've been discussed at length on the Apogee forum. They'll hit 170 Watts. General recogning is they'll do the job.

I don't believe the D. Sig. is anymore efficient than it ever was. The way to make them more efficient is to change to more powerful magnets. It is that simple. And this is what Graz has done on his own designs. Penalty? Extreme weight and price! You should check a pair out. I thought you said you were going to hear the DEFINITIVE. Did that ever happen?

Max. plate dissipation for a single 211 is 100 Watts in class A2 I believe.

The D.Sig. never was that hard to drive - and it has a much easier, and far flatter impedance curve than an ML Ascent.

It also goes low - to 25Hz, but is does have a bit of a bass peak down there at around 30Hz.

If you want hard to drive - the Scintilla is the one.