Summit Setup

[jtwrace]

Good Morning to all from this overcast NC Sunday morning. I have been a ML owner for many years. I sold my Quest to IWalker and replaced them with Summits. I have about 70-80 hrs on them. IWalker and I listend a lot last night. I really like them but I feel that something is missing from them. First, the setup. Pass Labs X-1, X-250, Camelot Roundtable, Uther MK4, Dragon 5.1 Plus, Richard Gray 1200, Richard Gray Substation and Cardas cable (Golder Ref) throughout & of course ML Summits with BC-68 power cords. I really like these speakers and yes they are new not fully broken in. The highs seem to be just not there as I like (compared to Quest or CLSIIZ). The bottom end is fine, I still have the settings at zero for the time being. The feet are as out of the box. I have experimented with toe a lot. The main problem is imaging. I have found with slight toe in (10*) the clarity is better but the imaging goes to slight right. When the speakers have no toe in the imaging is better but some of the clarity is lost. The speaker are 37.5" from the front wall and 22" from the side wall. 6' apart center to center. Sitting 10' away. Again, they sound really good. They just seem to do some stuff really well and some stuff egh, not as well as I would of thought. The "balance" is about the best I have ever heard from any speaker. The highs need help (IMO) and the imaging/soundstage is good. BUT it can be better for sure! I just don't understand the toe in problem that I have. Please, any thought and suggestions are greatly appreciated as always.

As a side note, I don't believe and hope not that the equipment is part of the problem. Although, I will be trying some Cary Tube equipment in the near future once we get them completley broken in and setup "properly".

 

[twich54]

You have a room width of approx 10' (if i did my math right), and with your Summitt's only six feet apart (ctr-ctr) and you sitting 10' back it's virtually impossible for them to image correctly with the toe in you mentioned. I sit 10-11' back from my Vantage's, they are 8'6" (Ctr-Ctr).

you have a small width, IMO, in your listening room to get the max out of your Summitt's, maybe with the help of some accoustic treatments in your room you could get them at least another foot apart.

 

[jtwrace]

11 1/2' wide to be exact and 6' 9" center to center

 

[twich54]

The walls behind your speakers......... absorbed, diffused or reflective ???

 

[jtwrace]

reflective directly behind. In the middle there is a windo treatment.

 

[twich54]

How about taking a digital pic and putting it up on the site, that would help us better. The "clairity" issue with the speakers perpendicular to the rear wall may be a reflective issue, relative to the sound radiation rearward from the panels aginst the wall. remember.....angle of incedence = angle of reflection. As sound propagation gets higher in freq that becomes evermore apparent.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Back wall issue / break in

Having owned 4 pairs of ML speakers over the last 20 years (CLS2A, Aerius, SL3, and now Summits), I believe it is crucial to have a back wall that has a uniform, consistent sonic "signature". Thousands of hours of listening have convinced me this is true. In my setup, I have 2 large glass windows (6' wide X 8' tall per each) as a back wall. I have treated the windows with Marigo's tuning dots and have placed 5 plants (average 5' tall) between the window and the panel to create a consistent diffusive surface for the "back wave" of the ML speakers. In my previous residence, I again had large windows in back of the speaker and used wood blinds, which I adjusted (open - close) to control the reflectivity of the glass. Minor adjustments of the blinds were totally audible (ie: more presence / bigger soundstage versus more body / decrease in soundstage) depending on the amount that the blinds were open.

Another thought is to have the Summits further away from the back wall. This should help attenuate the effect the back wall has on the overall sonic signature of your room. IMHO, my Summits seemed to change sonically for probably the first 500 hours or so.

My room is 18'-6" wide. I have the Summits 5' off the back wall to the front of the panel. The speakers are 8' apart, center to center and my listening chair is 9' from the panel front. I have 5'-3'' of separation from the panel centerline to each of the sidewalls.

One final thought is to play with the cross over settings. The amount of bass from the woofers will have a significant impact on the overall sound field you will hear. It may seem silly but adjustments as little as 0.25 db are audible.

Good luck and happy listening.

GG

 

[twich54]

Gordon, You have a much better size room for your Summitt's, which has allowed you to more ideally set them up. That is part of JT's battle with his set-up, is not quite enough room space.

Now about that 500 hrs break-in ??????????? Do you really think your sonic memory is good enough to recall the differences ?????? 500 hrs of listening translates into how many actuall days ??? I might buy into 1-200 hrs but beyond that, it's the power of psychoacoustics givin' the brain a workout !!!

 

[Joey_V]

1. Make sure back wall is even and side walls are even also.
2. Make sure Summits are even (in measurements) from all walls.... use a measuring tape.
3. Make sure the toe in is even on both sides, use meas tape to measure from each of the corners of the Summit's woofer boxes to make sure.
4. Get a tube preamp.

Joey

 

[Gordon Gray]

Twitch, I know

Gordon, You have a much better size room for your Summitt's, which has allowed you to more ideally set them up. That is part of JT's battle with his set-up, is not quite enough room space.

Now about that 500 hrs break-in ??????????? Do you really think your sonic memory is good enough to recall the differences ?????? 500 hrs of listening translates into how many actuall days ??? I might buy into 1-200 hrs but beyond that, it's the power of psychoacoustics givin' the brain a workout !!!

Twitch,

Could be psychoacoustics. Could have been that really nice bottle of Poilly Fusse. Seriously, my recollection is that the changes were not dramatic after the first 200 hours. My sense is that you get about 80 to 90% after the first 200 hours. What I do know is that I kept tweeking the bass crossover settings after 200 hours which, i believe, was caused by the woofers getting fully broken in.

FYI, I've owned three different houses in Jackson, WY and one of the main issues, when I was buying, was a "good size" listening / living room area. Also, I checked out your system and noticed you have a Cary CD Player. Just auditioned and bought their new CDP1. Absolute killer player for the bucks.

GG

 

[edwinr]

I have painted bricks as my back wall with the Summits about 3 feet back measured from the panels. Any closer and the back sound wave will over power the front.

Now, you MUST give the Summits, based on my personal experience, 6 months. My dealer told me this and he was right. You can't really judge the highs until they have settled in properly. Once around 6 or so months passed my Summits developed that air and sparkle I expected from large panels. I reckon the Vantages take much less time to run in - their panels are a fair bit smaller.

After a suitable time has alapsed (your ears will be the judge) then you can start tweaking. Maybe change a component or two. The Summits are very sensitive to quality (not necessarily expensive) electronics, as I found out in a frustrating several weeks of trying this and that amplifier and source before getting the combination right.

I think some early perceptions about the sound of the Summits came from reviewers and others who may have previewed Summits that hadn't reached their maximum potential. Comparing tight Summits with the Vantage would suggest that the Vantage is a better buy for half the price. Many have underestimated the very extended time period these speakers take to run in.

Based on my experience now, the Summit is SO MUCH more than a larger, more expensive Vantage.

 

[Pcar928fan]

Good Morning to all from this overcast NC Sunday morning. I have been a ML owner for many years. I sold my Quest to IWalker and replaced them with Summits. I have about 70-80 hrs on them. IWalker and I listend a lot last night. I really like them but I feel that something is missing from them. First, the setup. Pass Labs X-1, X-250, Camelot Roundtable, Uther MK4, Dragon 5.1 Plus, Richard Gray 1200, Richard Gray Substation and Cardas cable (Golder Ref) throughout & of course ML Summits with BC-68 power cords. I really like these speakers and yes they are new not fully broken in. The highs seem to be just not there as I like (compared to Quest or CLSIIZ).

When I moved up to Rotel seperates from Pioneer Elite receiver the highs REALLY popped on my Prodigy! It was a night and day difference. So, changing out a pre at some point or an amp at some point might help if you don't get the break in that you expect from them! Though from reading the other posts, I think you will be plenty happy in a few months. Also, if the room is very damped down acoustically that will hurt the highs more than the lows. My room is VERY, VERY bright! Tile floors REALLY make things pop, to much so frankly!

 

[tonyc]

jtwrace, I felt the same way as you when I first set up the Summits in my 14 x 16 room. Go to the extra tweak section of the owners manual, do the math and see where you end up. Try it even if it looks weird just to see what it sounds like. You may find yourself shocked and amazed-I know I was. Mine are about 64 inches from the back wall and 46" from the side walls to the center of the panel. Yes it is a bit nearfield and yes the speakers disappear. Go ahead you know you want to try it!

 

[Joey_V]

It's all about positioning.... that's the end of it IMO. There have been times that I've been frustrated with my Summits... but once I positioned them perfectly and once I got the tubes in, I've been extremely... EXTREMELY happy with them! And I'm not easy to please once it comes to audio and my own money.

Joey

 

[ScottG]

I think this is a lot like telling a blind person about color... I'm SUPER happy w/ the summits... but could it be better? I guess so... for all I know... I'm still in black and white w/ the summits...

I've tried a half dozen positions so far (no pun intended) and settled on something that will work w/ the screen size coming in later this month and room size... is there a better position? probably... but either I'll never know unless I start experimenting again... of course, you know I will...

let me explain what blue looks like'

 

[Joey_V]

Based on my experience now, the Summit is SO MUCH more than a larger, more expensive Vantage.

From my experience, it is SO MUCH more than the Vantage I had. It is truly an awesome speaker. Better and more coherent, in almost every fashion. I agree, Ed.

 

[Tommy]

jtwrace, be patient, the Summits needs break in. I had mine on for a few weeks before leaving on a one week vacation. I left them on quite loud while beeing away, and I was surprised by the differnece on my return, especially the bass. Kepp them playing for a few more weeks, then get crititical.

 

[sleepysurf]

I will also attest to the Summits needing at LEAST 500 hrs for break-in. I bought mine used, and they STILL took another couple months to fully break in.

In the meantime, two suggestions...

1) Try tilting the speakers forward a tad, either by raising the rear spikes, or, as I did, removing the bottom spikes and screw ring altogether. This tweak REALLY made a difference in my setup- yielding much cleaner and brighter mids/highs (at least from MY listening position, which is about 12' from my Summits, which are slightly over 8' apart).

2) Also, experiment with TURNING DOWN the woofer settings (esp @ 50 Hz). Mine are currently set at -4 (L) and -2 (R) respectively, with the difference due to an open hall/door adjacent to the R speaker. I ultimately ended up leaving the 25Hz settings at zero. I found that trimming the woofers a bit gives better overall tonal balance to the mids and highs.

 

[edwinr]

I agree with trimming the 50 Hz pots down a couple of notches. Mine are set at -2 db and removes that very slight chestiness I was getting on male voices. My 25 Hz setting has been left at 0 db.