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Speaker positioning (Vantage)

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Axel

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Hi all,

Currently my vantages are placed ~7ft from each other, ~3.5ft from the front wall and my listening position is ~8ft from the speakers.
Unfortunately, I cannot move the speakers further back from the front wall (a room limitation).
But, I have some breathing space between the speakers and the side walls, therefore, I can stretch their distance to about 9ft from each other.
Is this recommended ? What do you suggest ?

Thanks !
Axel.
 

garmtz

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Axel said:
Hi all,

Currently my vantages are placed ~7ft from each other, ~3.5ft from the front wall and my listening position is ~8ft from the speakers.
Unfortunately, I cannot move the speakers further back from the front wall (a room limitation).
But, I have some breathing space between the speakers and the side walls, therefore, I can stretch their distance to about 9ft from each other.
Is this recommended ? What do you suggest ?

Thanks !
Axel.
I would not separate the speakers more than the listening distance, but why not try?! ML speakers have less bad influence from the side walls, so it is worth a try. Try to listen for the 'hole in the middle' effect. When you lose focus, the speakers are too far apart. 3,5 feet is a very good distance for the speakers to be from the front wall!
 

Joey_V

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If you can do 9 feet from panel to chair to panel, do it. However, keep in mind that you must try to keep the equilateral triangle intact.

I would also suggest toe-in your Vantages aggressively. What I have found with ML is that they have poor horizontal dispersion so toeing them in brings about every last detail and 3D staging.
 

Axel

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Joey_V said:
If you can do 9 feet from panel to chair to panel, do it. However, keep in mind that you must try to keep the equilateral triangle intact.

I would also suggest toe-in your Vantages aggressively. What I have found with ML is that they have poor horizontal dispersion so toeing them in brings about every last detail and 3D staging.
Thanks !
Regarding the equilateral triangle, I've talked to Jim Power and he said that unlike standard dynamic speakers, with MLs the distance from the speakers triangle base to the listening position should be further away than the distance between the speakers (for example: distance between speakers = 9ft, distance from triangle base to the listening position = 10ft).
This means that the equilateral triangle approach, that is recommended for most speakers, is not an optimal solution for electorstats (or is it ?)...
If you have had a different experience I would like to hear it, because my listening area allows the creation of a relatively large equilateral triangle (like I've had with my previous speakers).
 

garmtz

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I think Jim Powers is right. It mirrors my own experiences.
 

twich54

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garmtz said:
I think Jim Powers is right. It mirrors my own experiences.

"Ditto", my Vantages are 40" from rear wall, 4' from side wall, 8'4" apart and my "sweet spot" is approx 10' in front of them.
 

garmtz

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Approximately 8' apart, sitting 9' away, 50" front the front wall. Have the Vantage as well.
 

DTB300

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garmtz said:
I think Jim Powers is right. It mirrors my own experiences.
Same here.

I am limited in my setup by: room dimensions and it having to be a living space first, then a stereo room next.

Speakers 7' center to center, I sit 10 ft away. I have very little toe-in, and speakers are tilted back from verticle.

Dan
 

garmtz

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How is the rake/tilt angle for your Vantages? I have set them up completely vertical now.
 

Axel

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garmtz said:
How is the rake/tilt angle for your Vantages? I have set them up completely vertical now.
That's interesting, how does this effect the sound ? A friend of mine who owns the Ascents says that tilting the panel to be completely vertical will cause an improvement.
I wonder what kind of improvement ?
 

Jeff Zaret

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I agree with all the posts and think we all can say that the "triangle"' configuration is best. At the very least, it can be equal distance. This is usually based on the constraints of the room and the "significant" other. ;) Optimally it is better the way Jim P states but again your room will dictate what you can and can not do to get the best possible and realistic sound from your speakers.
I would add one more idea to this before you get too deep in to this and that is get a tape measure.ruler and mark down the distances you currently have. Get the distances from the back wall, side wall and if there are differences from the left and right of each individual speaker to the back wall as far as "toe in". After that, then start adjusting. This will take some of the frustration out of it. My CLSiiZ's are toed in and it took some adjusting to get the "center/depth" imaging to be correct. Actually, I think my "triangle" is backwards. I believe I actually sit closer to my fronts than they are apart. I sit about 8 feet from each speaker and I think?? they are about 10 feet apart but that is a guess.

Just some thoughts

Jeff :cool:
 

garmtz

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Axel said:
That's interesting, how does this effect the sound ? A friend of mine who owns the Ascents says that tilting the panel to be completely vertical will cause an improvement.
I wonder what kind of improvement ?
When going vertical, the imaging becomes better, the sound is more open and more details are heard. This is my opinion, I have not heard negatives with this arrangement, but I must say that the wall behind the speakers is not vertical, but has an angle of about 20 degrees.
 

DTB300

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Axel said:
That's interesting, how does this effect the sound ? A friend of mine who owns the Ascents says that tilting the panel to be completely vertical will cause an improvement. I wonder what kind of improvement ?
I think it is personal preference.

Try tilting or verticle and find the sound you like best. Same thing with toe-in amounts.

Dan
 

Joey_V

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I have tried so many configurations and in 3 different areas of my apartment (2 areas in my living room and 1 in the bedroom)... what I found was that I preferred the pure equilateral triangle.

Triangle:
The equilateral triangle, however, will make the sweetspot smaller and will result in a very picky placement since if your head is a little off, you alter the stage quite a bit. I tried the Jim Power's recommendation, and I found it to be a little too uninvolving. The singers arent in my face... and I dont pay to sit in the back of the concert... I'd rather be right in the pit.

Toe-In:
I have tried every possible toe-in... even toe-out! I used the flashlight method where you shine it to the 1/3 area of the inner panel... and I felt that with no toe in, the image is sort of flat. With a little toe in, the images and the stage got better. BUT, with almost full toe in, I'm talking 70%-80% toe in, the images are very very good and the stage floats forward as well as back ward.

Rake:
This is very dependent upon seat height. If you are short and the seat is short, you may want to make it a bit more vertical rather than raked back. However, if you are tall and the seat is tall, you should leave it raked back. Also, you must take into account how far you are from the MLs. If you are quite far, then you may want to get the panels more vertical... if you are closer, then you can leave them raked back. I found the rake to be an issue when I was in the living room and I was considerably far from the speakers.

Just my opinion.
 
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Axel

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Update

OK guys, I played a bit with my speakers positioning, now the speaker-to-speaker distance is ~8ft and the distance from the speakers triangle base to my listening position is ~7.5ft. I tilted my speakers panel to be almost vertical, and I toed them in according to the ML rule of thumb.
The results:
- The soundstage became wider; sounds that previously seemed to come out from the speakers, now appear to be in the space between the speakers.
- The sound seems more "in your face" and involving.
- Clarity has improved, I was able to hear details that I haven't heard before.

I'm very happy with the outcome of this repositioning.
Thanks a bunch for your advice !
Axel.
 

Joey_V

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The equilateral triangle is nice isnt it? Yup yup!

Did you try more toe in? Try toeing them in just a little bit more (not necessarily all the way, perhaps a 2/3 toe in)... see if you notice more detail in the music and an even better central image. The soundstage shouldnt not collapse at all, it will only be in your head (an illusion) that it does.

Try it, Axel.
 

Jeff Zaret

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I am glad you got to a point where you really like it and can now really enjoy the music. :D
I would leave like it is for a few days before moving/changing anything again. :eek:

Jeff :cool:
 

jmschnur

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Joey,

When you say 80% toe in is this with respect to the centerif 0% has the blue light point right at you-can you clairfy? Which part of the panel is facing you; the one that as at the wall or the one that going toward the other speaker.

Thanks,

joel
 

garmtz

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I also toe in the speakers quite dramatically. I can JUST see the insides of the bass enclosure from the listening position. This works best for me in my room.
 
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