PS Audio Directstream

[timm]

Hi All....

I had a day off ... and some bad things happened.... I ordered up a ps audio directstream....It was a screamin good deal.... I am geeked to say the least as the latest firmware seems to hold its own against some very nice DACs..... I currently have a Denon 5900 - and will use that as a transport.... and also have a lot of hi rez ripped to disk. I am excited... nervous... having buyer's remorse.... and can't wait for it to get here.

I have completely gone over the edge to the digital realm..... I will be hooking up a laptop/ using jriver..... and hooking up some external usb drives with my music on them.

I will let you know how things progress once it arrives. Am hoping for a jaw dropping experience vs the denon.... we shall see....

Any hints or tips for those of you in the know - in regards to cables.... use of a usb regen??.... In any case - from the start - I will be using some cheaper cables for coax and usb....

Thanks Tim.

 

[Brad225]

For what it is worth.

As you know I recently set up my new front end with laptop and storage. When I purchased my player/dac I asked one of the founders/owners of PlayBack Designs his recommendations for cables.

He said the only time he heard a difference with USB was when he had listened to some, in his words "Uber Expensive Cables". Considering the other companies he is an owner in and the American importer for DarTzeel, I think his idea of uber expensive would be my idea of, out of the question/insanely expensive. He said to find a cable that had very good shielding, and that I could probably find one from a good computer store.

 

[timm]

For what it is worth.

As you know I recently set up my new front end with laptop and storage. When I purchased my player/dac I asked one of the founders/owners of PlayBack Designs his recommendations for cables.

He said the only time he heard a difference with USB was when he had listened to some, in his words "Uber Expensive Cables". Considering the other companies he is an owner in and the American importer for DarTzeel, I think his idea of uber expensive would be my idea of, out of the question/insanely expensive. He said to find a cable that had very good shielding, and that I could probably find one from a good computer store.

Hmm... Ted Smith from PS Audio says he just uses typical radioshack usb in his setup..... I have heard diffs in analog cables.... and I know some guys talk about diffs in digital cables..... I will start fairly cheap and go from there!! ... It will take me awhile to figure out the software... optimum setup etc..... A guy I know says a usb audio regen helped his usb connection....

 

[Brad225]

What is an USB Regen?

 

[timm]

supposedly regenerates the signal... essentially removing noise.... google Uptone Audio Regen...

 

[timm]

I gots it!! ��. So far it is mahvelous with only 5 hrs in. I'll say more later if anyone is interested Thanks Tim

 

[bonzo]

I have the Regen amber. It is effective when I am using it with my noisy PC. I am building a server (modded PC), with a good power supply, so thing will be to see if it's effective then

 

[timm]

I have the Regen amber. It is effective when I am using it with my noisy PC. I am building a server (modded PC), with a good power supply, so thing will be to see if it's effective then

Cool. Let us know how it goes. I have yet to hook up my PC but had heard about this gizmo and wondered if there a definite sonic gain.

Btw the DS is sounding swimmingly good. I'm glad I couldn't hear the lampizator as I couldn't afford it !! . And no I don't mind you bringing up the lampi in fact I enjoy it. Thanks timm

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Hmm... Ted Smith from PS Audio says he just uses typical radioshack usb in his setup..... I have heard diffs in analog cables.... and I know some guys talk about diffs in digital cables..... I will start fairly cheap and go from there!! ... It will take me awhile to figure out the software... optimum setup etc..... A guy I know says a usb audio regen helped his usb connection....

Any good quality shielded USB cable will sound as good as the very best USB cable made from unobtainium in the entire universe.

Keep in mind that you can't hear background noise in digital.

If the signal carrying the 1's and 0's can be understood you are golden and to be understood the ones and zeros only need to be discernible from each other.

As long as the value is above a latch threshold or below a latch threshold it arrives ABSOLUTELY PERFECTLY INTACT and can not be any better sounding.

I believe the thresholds are to just to be within 25% of the latch value on both sides. Which means you can have 20% noise with your signal and have no impact on your sound quality.


Think of it this way. If you are in a room with lots of conversations going. If you are talking with a person right in front of you. As long as you can understand what the other guy is saying it doesn't matter how much background noise there is.

That is digital communication. It either works reliably or it doesn't. Once it works reliably you can not improve it.

 

[timm]

Any good quality shielded USB cable will sound as good as the very best USB cable made from unobtainium in the entire universe.

Keep in mind that you can't hear background noise in digital.

If the signal carrying the 1's and 0's can be understood you are golden and to be understood the ones and zeros only need to be discernible from each other.

As long as the value is above a latch threshold or below a latch threshold it arrives ABSOLUTELY PERFECTLY INTACT and can not be any better sounding.

I believe the thresholds are to just to be within 25% of the latch value on both sides. Which means you can have 20% noise with your signal and have no impact on your sound quality.


Think of it this way. If you are in a room with lots of conversations going. If you are talking with a person right in front of you. As long as you can understand what the other guy is saying it doesn't matter how much background noise there is.

That is digital communication. It either works reliably or it doesn't. Once it works reliably you can not improve it.

I get what you are saying Mark.... I am an IT guy as well.... although sometimes I ask ignorant IT questions.... sometimes I just don't want to think or need a double check!! What USB/SPDIF/toslink cables do you use? do you recall the brand and where you purchased them? I'm not going to start out with the 'unobtanium' versions..... yet...... a possible sickness..... but, would like to try what is a 'decent' cable that didn't cost an arm and a leg....

What about this discussion of 'noise' .... things like a 'regen' supposedly cleaning up that noise?

 

[RCHeliGuy]

I get what you are saying Mark.... I am an IT guy as well.... although sometimes I ask ignorant IT questions.... sometimes I just don't want to think or need a double check!! What USB/SPDIF/toslink cables do you use? do you recall the brand and where you purchased them? I'm not going to start out with the 'unobtanium' versions..... yet...... a possible sickness..... but, would like to try what is a 'decent' cable that didn't cost an arm and a leg....

What about this discussion of 'noise' .... things like a 'regen' supposedly cleaning up that noise?

Let's just assume it got rid of all of the background noise on the USB signal and did it's job perfectly. That would meet the manufacturer's claims.


The digital signal doesn't care about the noise floor as long as the S/N ratio is just high enough to differentiate 1's and 0's reliably. So the DAC should be getting all its bits perfectly whether there is noise in the signal or not.


HOWEVER, if you had a cheap very poorly isolated USB input that managed to transmit noise to the analog section of the device then it could potentially be of value.


The problem is that complete isolation from the USB input is commonplace and easily available and it is doubtful that any of us are using such a low quality device that we don't have optical coupling and 0 noise being transferred into the analog audio signal.

So in theory it could be of value, but in practice I can guarantee that Bonzo has a very high quality USB input to the DAC he is using that is optically or otherwise coupled with no chance of USB noise contaminating the music signal.

BTW I only listen to music through a PC with JRiver now unless I'm streaming directly to my OPPO 105D wirelessly. I built the PC from scratch with a high quality PS, SSD drive etc..

You can hear static that can bridge across connections. It's possible that putting an intermediate device in the chain might ground the static before it hit the DAC. However that is a completely separate issue.

I can't find the USB cable I purchased. It has a clear case and a mesh outer sleeve. The only thing I found close on Amazon was 16' long and I'm running an 8' length.

The more I think about this, the more I think that Bonzo may have been suffering from a poorly grounded USB port on his computer or static issue. In both cases an intermediate device that grounds the USB cable could solve the problem. I'd love to put a scope on it to measure what is happening.

 

[timm]

So I wanted to follow up here and give you my thoughts on the directstream.

First of all I still am just hooked via spdif. Optical and coax sound identical. Easily a/b'd with a remote. My squeezebox and denon 5900 sound identical as well. This doesn't really surprise me as it converts everything to DSD.

Opening the box everything looked great ... White gloves...sd card for upgrades... Decent power cable but nothing special. The unit itself has a very nice heft and looks way better in person than in pics on the net. I got the silver with the piano black top. Really sharp. Construction is top notch.. Nice feel to the button. Touch screen works great and nice metal casing.

Out of the box it sounded pretty good - but as it broke in it just started to open up nicely. This came delivered with the latest Yale OS. Sound character? Smooth like most DSD. If you do like sacd you will love this dac. At 100 hrs bass starts to flesh out a bit and the soundscape starts developing many different shades of detail, depth, and imaging. I don't think it is done yet though. In a word - it sounds fantastic. Now the only thing I have been able to throw at it is CD for the moment. And what it does to cd is tremendous. Everything is liquidy. I like that. No cd glare at all.

My real question going in was could this sound that much better than my ex flagship player. In a word...yes. It took my system up another level. I would best describe the differences most noticeable in regards to the soundstage. Everything has a place in the soundstage... Front middle and back. The denon was less dimensional. Noise floor - omg I didn't know what noise floor was until I didn't hear it. Little nuances pop in the music.

I got a good deal on this - couldn't afford it otherwise. But definitely worth it.

Next step - hooking up to laptop with my hi res and DSD. I'll let you know how that goes

 

[amey01]

supposedly regenerates the signal... essentially removing noise.... google Uptone Audio Regen...

I have the Regen amber. It is effective when I am using it with my noisy PC

So I put it to you:

If the cheap, nasty, switching wall-wart powered "USB Regen" can take a "dirty USB signal" and turn it into a "clean" one for D>A conversion.........
.......then.......
Why can't you super-expensive PS-Audio Directstream (or your beloved Lampi Kedar) do the same?

Is the Lampi deficient? Can't it obtain a pure digital stream from a standard USB signal?

If not, why not? When the cheap, nasty, plastic-cased, $170 "USB Regen" can?

Mmmmmmm - the mind boggles.

 

[bonzo]

Funnily enough, people are getting different results on Lampi, with more negative than positive, results change depending on what transport is used. with other dacs it seems to make a positive difference. Moral of the story? Don't mess with the Lampi, it's superb

For example, from Mike Lavigne: "the Uptone JS-2 LPS has 2 outputs so it can power both the J-CAT USB card for the Komputer and the Regen (for the Trinity dac) which is how I use it. the Regen does not seem to help the GG, so I have an extra Regen just sitting here."

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...s-Aurender-N10&p=356462&viewfull=1#post356462

 

[timm]

So I put it to you:

If the cheap, nasty, switching wall-wart powered "USB Regen" can take a "dirty USB signal" and turn it into a "clean" one for D>A conversion.........
.......then.......
Why can't you super-expensive PS-Audio Directstream (or your beloved Lampi Kedar) do the same?

Is the Lampi deficient? Can't it obtain a pure digital stream from a standard USB signal?

If not, why not? When the cheap, nasty, plastic-cased, $170 "USB Regen" can?

Mmmmmmm - the mind boggles.

Because they suck?? haha... I'm not sure ... a good question... and I am not technical enough to answer that one..... I guess I would say that maybe there are trade-offs trying to build something like that within the DAC....??? I couldn't really say....

So Amey - I have a touch as well.... it does sound very good with the DS... My issue is ... I have a bunch of ISO SACD rips - which I don't think the SBT with the EDO will work with.... and I'm not sure I want to export them all to .dsf or dff files.... However, I will give it a go when I get everything hooked up and let you know what I think.... Does the M-Dac do DSD... how do you have the touch hooked to the M-Dac? Thanks Tim.

 

[amey01]

... and I am not technical enough to answer that one.....

If you're not technical enough to understand, that's fine. But with respect, I'd say that you're also not technical enough to understand why you are dropping $multi-thousands on a USB high-end USB cable. Hint: There is no reason! (provided you're using an async connection method).

So Amey - I have a touch as well.... it does sound very good with the DS... My issue is ... I have a bunch of ISO SACD rips - which I don't think the SBT with the EDO will work with.... and I'm not sure I want to export them all to .dsf or dff files.... However, I will give it a go when I get everything hooked up and let you know what I think.... Does the M-Dac do DSD... how do you have the touch hooked to the M-Dac? Thanks Tim.

I use S/PDIF (coax) out of the SBT. Unlike USB, coax could conceivably generate a difference between cables and connection methods. But the M-DAC is a buffering/re-clocking DAC so the difference doesn't exist.

I have tried the M-DAC with USB using EDO, but there was no difference I could discern.

No, the M-DAC doesn't do DSD, although there is an update available for the M-DAC which enables it. I haven't tried or investigated as I don't have any DSD files (yet).

Maybe time for an upgrade (haha)

 

[timm]

If you're not technical enough to understand, that's fine. But with respect, I'd say that you're also not technical enough to understand why you are dropping $multi-thousands on a USB high-end USB cable. Hint: There is no reason! (provided you're using an async connection method).



I use S/PDIF (coax) out of the SBT. Unlike USB, coax could conceivably generate a difference between cables and connection methods. But the M-DAC is a buffering/re-clocking DAC so the difference doesn't exist.

1-And where did you get the impression I was spending thousands on cable??
2- maybe I missed the point of your question regarding the 'why haven't the Google dac designers fixed this?' My lack of technical expertise in dac design has failed me. I was hoping you might be able to answer it since you are more technically inclined?
3- when you said you have tried the touch w USB and there was no discernable diff - as compared to what - the expensive USB cables you own or compared to coax?

 

[amey01]

1-And where did you get the impression I was spending thousands on cable??

People do.

2- maybe I missed the point of your question regarding the 'why haven't the Google dac designers fixed this?' My lack of technical expertise in dac design has failed me. I was hoping you might be able to answer it since you are more technically inclined?

Well my point is that there is no reason why they couldn't fix any issue (if there was one to begin with).

If the USB Regen is doing some sort of "magic" to the USB signal, then why haven't the Lampi or PS Audio or whatever DAC designers incorporated the same "magic" at their USB input?

There could only be two reasons. Either the design is flawed and deficient (I certainly hope not at the prices they charge); or the concept is BS.

Async DACs operating on bulk transfer mode just don't work that way. The data (and data only - no timing signal) is transferred to a buffer in the DAC. Error checking algorithms are employed to ensure the data gets there accurately. This is guaranteed by definition of the USB specification!! The DAC is then acting as the data storage device (if you like), and the sound you get is wholly dependent on the DAC.

The cables used to transfer the data (data only, remember) to the DAC are no more relevant than the cables under your street that you used to transfer the file from HDTracks to your NAS.

Buffering DACs (basically, any modern DAC) also work in the same way for S/PDIF inputs. So while timing information is part of the data signal in a S/PDIF connection, the buffering DAC strips that out and re-clocks it in the same way as the USB input. Again, error checking and correction algorithms are employed.

3- when you said you have tried the touch w USB and there was no discernable diff - as compared to what - the expensive USB cables you own or compared to coax?

USB out compared to S/PDIF coaxial. USB was over a cheap, computer-shop USB cable. Coax was using my Tara RSC 75-ohm interconnect.


Seriously - the guys who design this stuff aren't stupid. There is no voodoo to digital. There is no "magic" that a little $170 plastic box can fix that everyone else forgot about!

 

[timm]

People do.



Well my point is that there is no reason why they couldn't fix any issue (if there was one to begin with).

If the USB Regen is doing some sort of "magic" to the USB signal, then why haven't the Lampi or PS Audio or whatever DAC designers incorporated the same "magic" at their USB input?

There could only be two reasons. Either the design is flawed and deficient (I certainly hope not at the prices they charge); or the concept is BS.

Async DACs operating on bulk transfer mode just don't work that way. The data (and data only - no timing signal) is transferred to a buffer in the DAC. Error checking algorithms are employed to ensure the data gets there accurately. This is guaranteed by definition of the USB specification!! The DAC is then acting as the data storage device (if you like), and the sound you get is wholly dependent on the DAC.

The cables used to transfer the data (data only, remember) to the DAC are no more relevant than the cables under your street that you used to transfer the file from HDTracks to your NAS.

Buffering DACs (basically, any modern DAC) also work in the same way for S/PDIF inputs. So while timing information is part of the data signal in a S/PDIF connection, the buffering DAC strips that out and re-clocks it in the same way as the USB input. Again, error checking and correction algorithms are employed.



USB out compared to S/PDIF coaxial. USB was over a cheap, computer-shop USB cable. Coax was using my Tara RSC 75-ohm interconnect.


Seriously - the guys who design this stuff aren't stupid. There is no voodoo to digital. There is no "magic" that a little $170 plastic box can fix that everyone else forgot about!

I agree with you.... I am in IT... and although not in networking - do have some knowledge there..... so I here what you are saying about the regen.....

Here is what I have seen on the net and people I have talked to at least.... People that try different cables.. A lot of people that were sceptics. hear a difference....even on 35K DACs. People that say - it is impossible and have no opportunity to compare to an expensive cable say - 'this is snakeoil'..... I HAVE NOT compared and have not even hooked up via USB yet.

Now ... something that I would like to find out is -- if there is a way to drive the SBT with JRiver - or some other software that will take a SACD ISO file and play it.... I have quite a few of them.... and I would like to avoid converting them to .dsf files so the SBT can play it.... JRiver will do this ... essentially convert on the fly... LMS will not.....

Now - if I can't get the SBT to work with SACD ISO's then I need to go via jriver/computer.....and deal with the ups and downs of USB....as I do not have a network bridge in my DAC.....

 

[timm]

Well I wanted to get back to anyone interested.

I am now hooked via USB. I am playing DSD files straight to the directstream using jriver and an expensive cable that I got a great deal on. All I can say is it is very impressive. No glare or edginess. Bass weight and a great sounding midrange. I was a bit surprised honestly. But I'm a very happy camper. I can't imagine the need for a jitterbug / regen etc. it just sounds spectacular.

Regarding jriver. I love it. Nothing is hidden like iTunes and it works great and I can't say enough. I don't find it difficult to setup as others have claimed. It's great