OPPO 105D break in

[timm]

Good stuff Gordon. Wow and you have had a playback design in the house. That gets very nice reviews. So it sounds like the oppo may not be a monster killer. But I have found most diffs in digital to be changes that are , as you said, personal preference. I currently have a denon 5900 and a squeezebox touch. The SBT compares very favorably to it. I find the sbt to sound clearer and have a tad better bass. The 5900 sounds fuller in the mids - uh more 'analog like'. Sorry. Anyway it is complete preference and quite frankly am still not sure what I like better. I have had two others do blind a/b and everyone picks the sbt initially but then starts to hem and haw. I could see the description of 'lifting a veil' blah blah being used. But - still couldn't say what I like better. It's too big of a decision.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

So it sounds like the oppo may not be a monster killer.

Maybe, maybe not

Here's the rub. The D/A transition is so good currently with the frequency response and phasing that is so close to absolute perfection that it is unlikely there is any room to improve on recreating the original signal going to your amplifier in any way that is measurable or discernible to the human ear.

The speakers, speaker placement and room and treatments will absolutely dramatically affect what you hear.

The question at this point is mostly what a company decides to do to add color to the original pristine music signal. People actually like the sound of some THD, so adding tubes or circuits that add some pleasing THD will frequently sound better to people.

What sounds best frequently isn't perfectly accurate reproduction of the original sound and some of these companies have gotten good at making music sound just different enough in a good way that people like the sound better.

So like Gordon said, it really comes down to personal preference after a certain point.

As much as I hate to admit it I've heard color added to music and in some cases I liked it even though I knew it was less accurate.

BTW I have a friend with a very elaborate system with well over 100K in his amplifiers and close to that for his speakers. He takes a perfectly good CD and records it on his Nakamichi CR7 and listens to the tape because he likes the sound better. His amps are incredibly clean, his room has all kinds of treatments to get it just so, but he likes the artifacts from his tapes and loves the sound that comes out of them.

 

[Gordon Gray]

timm,

Haven't made a final decision on the 105 yet. And I'm just evaluating cd / sacd playback only, which is just a small part of what this unit does. That, in my opinion, would render my observations invalid within the overall performance / price ratio of the unit.

And I never had the MPS5 in the house. Was unable to get a return option.

And Mark's comment are spot on. It's all so personal and subjective in the end.

Gordon

 

[timm]

Not irrelevant to me. Cd/sacd is paramount to me as well. I have a streamer. And am not interested in integrating my sound w my video. So keep the pointless irrelevant posts coming!!!

 

[Brad225]

Gordon,

I'm approaching the 125 hour mark and it has definitely gone through some changes. The sound stage moving deeper and then retreating to its earlier flat sound only to get deeper and more spacious. The mid-fi rather than hi-fi sound it started with is improving but the balance of voices and instruments I am use to with my SCD-1 is clearly not there at this time. Mids and highs still have an uncomfortable edge to them that keeps me from wanting to listen for long periods of time. The low end is still kind of bloated and uncontrolled. Even with that I think it will still improve more with time.

On another note I purchased an Oppo 105 not the D with Dan Wrights Mods and some upgraded tubes to try out. Should have it the end of next week. By then the 105D should be about as broken in as it will probably get. I will let you know how they compare.

 

[sleepysurf]

... On another note I purchased an Oppo 105 not the D with Dan Wrights Mods and some upgraded tubes to try out. Should have it the end of next week. By then the 105D should be about as broken in as it will probably get. I will let you know how they compare.

That should be a very interesting "shootout!"

 

[Gordon Gray]

I think I know who the winner will be.

To the best of my knowledge, the units are identical except for the Darbee video processing and the fact that the D model can stream DSD.

Shouldn't matter on CD / SACD disc playback.

Seems like 225 hours or so is the burn in time.

 

[Brad225]

I am relatively sure the mod will be better.

My first interest is to hear what the mod do for the things we both found the stock player didn't provide.
If the sound can improve on my former SCD-1, I will probably keep the upgraded tubes, sell the 105 and purchase the 105D and have that upgraded. In the end I would like to be able to download DSD and stream it as you mentioned.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

I think I know who the winner will be.

To the best of my knowledge, the units are identical except for the Darbee video processing and the fact that the D model can stream DSD.

Shouldn't matter on CD / SACD disc playback.

Seems like 225 hours or so is the burn in time.

That is absolutely correct.

The Darbee is video processing to allow for smart image sharpening that allows you to see more detail without creating ugly sharpening artifacts.
It is simply the addition of this video processing and has ZERO effect on the audio section.

FYI, it takes some experimentation and you need to turn off your TV's built in sharpening or turn it way down for it to be effective. Darbee is also configurable so you dial it in to taste.

I'm sure the tube mods will warm up the sound in a pleasing way for most people. Even at a cost of twice the purchase price of a 105D the addition of the tube mods will still create a total system that is noticeably less expensive than a lot of the other systems out there.

I would love to be able to A/B my 105D with one that had these modifications to hear how the tubes impact the sound. The built in power supply for the 105D is already excellent, so I personally think that part of the mod is superfluous and done more for visual impact than anything else.

 

[Gordon Gray]

I will say the 105D is far more engaging than it was 10 days ago.

Much better tonal saturation, body, and imaging.

Regarding the mods (there are several available), it will obviously depend on the individual as the whether the modded unit is "better than" the stock especially given the fact that the modification price is equal to or exceeds the units original purchase price.

 

[sb6]

Hi timm,

Here's my try.

To my ears, it's a very easy to listen to CDP that is quick, transparent, robust, engaging and tonally even handed. It fleshes out the sound stage quite well (imaging and dimensionality are quite good IMHO) and it's very easy for me to hear the recording venue ambience including the classical and opera stations on XM. To me, that's a great indicator of the "character" of the unit.

The Esoteric K01 clearly did some things better but, as I said before, I wasn't able to emotionally connect with the music like I can with the 306. Read, the K01 was more precise in some ways but more "mechanical" in it's overall presentation.

Regarding your last question, I would assume their DAC's are voiced in the same manner but I've never heard them so that is pure speculation. All things being equal, one would assume they are better than the DAC in the 306. Regarding voicing, I'm a big CJ fan and I really like their "house" sound given the fact that I'm on my third CJ preamp. I think the same holds true for Cary.

And in the end, your reaction to the 306, the K01, the OPPO 105D, and all the other optical disc players out there may be entirely different due to your personal biases, listening room, equipment, type of music played, etc. What's interesting is that Michael Fremmer / Stereophile reviewed the original unit as well as the updated version and he really likes the sound. Of course, it's no longer being built but it's pretty easy for me to get a handle on the sound of other disc players when he reviews the competition. As you may know, he's a huge analog fan and generally does not give positive reviews on digital playback systems.

Perhaps Joey and now Dave can chime in with their observations since they both own the 306. I, for one, would be most curious.

Hope that helps.

Best,

Gordon

PS: Recently had a chance to pick up a used Playback Design MPS5 at a really good price. Decided not to pursue. Also, when they show up on Audiogon, they seem to sell fairly quickly. Not too bad for a "dated" piece of digital gear.

WRT the high end single box Esoteric players, they are very revealing. If your amp, cables or speakers are doing anything "wrong" or if the source material is not top notch, they can be very unforgiving. I hope you are happy with the Oppo once broken in, but the Esoteric should be several leagues better. I'd be surprised if the Oppo comes close to the Esoteric at less than 1/10th the price. If it does, I'll sell mine buy the Oppo and pocket the extra $5k

 

[RCHeliGuy]

WRT the high end single box Esoteric players, they are very revealing. If your amp, cables or speakers are doing anything "wrong" or if the source material is not top notch, they can be very unforgiving. I hope you are happy with the Oppo once broken in, but the Esoteric should be several leagues better. I'd be surprised if the Oppo comes close to the Esoteric at less than 1/10th the price. If it does, I'll sell mine buy the Oppo and pocket the extra $5k

At the data acquisition and DAC end there have been substantial improvements over the years and we are basically at the theoretical limits of what can be done.

It doesn't require the most expensive transport or DAC available to reach this point.

The problem is that once you get really good sound quality at a lower cost, the high end of the market has to come up with very interesting explanations behind how they are finding ways to improve sound. In most cases they are talking in theoretical terms that offer no actual improvement in the sound accuracy. They have to find SOME way to differentiate themselves and justify their cost.

The key difference between higher end players is going to be the color added to the original recording not the overall accuracy.

The business model for high end Esoteric players is very low volume, very high markup. There is very little linear relationship between the money spent and the sound quality. It costs more to manufacture high end equipment mostly because they aren't buying in volume, are not set up for mass production and use very heavy bezels and expensive finishing that has no impact on the sound quality. In some cases they use larger analog components that add cost but have only a theoretical or non-existent impact on the sound quality, but mostly they don't sell many and have to float their company off very low volume which means much higher markup just to cover their overhead.

BTW this is just a a trickle down from the middle class disintegrating, and the commoditization of reasonably priced equipment. The audio market had no where to go except to chase the top 1%, so they lowered production and actually starting competing on exclusivity and being the most expensive since people would have a budget of lets say 100K or so and would spend whatever it took to fill that budget.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Mark,

I'm not defending Esoteric but they design / manufacture superior transports when compared to what is typically used in most CDP's. Also, they like Cary and others, offer upsampling and filter options that allow the end user to better tailor the sound to one's individual system. You can argue that it's merely "coloring" the sound but, if my auditory memory serves me correctly and soon to be reverified with the return of my Cary, these features can make or break how the unit fits any systems overall synergy and the listeners personal biases thereof.

I agree with you about price markup and exclusivity. Endemic and frankly disgusting in the high end audio industry IMHO.

And with all due respect, if one has not had a piece of gear in one's own system, I think it's pretty difficult to justify commenting on the actual sound of a component. Apologize in advance if you or sb6 have auditioned the Esoteric units in your personal systems.

Thanks for your thoughtful input.

Best,

Gordon

 

[slowGEEZR]

Gordon, Steve (sb6) has the K-03 in his system and I've heard it many times and think it is absolutely wonderful sounding. It does sound different, depending on how much upsampling is selected or which filter is being used. I would love to own one someday. I've also heard the Oppo 105 and the Oppo with the complete Modwright mods and they sounded good, but different from each other and as has already been said, it's so subjective and system/room dependent as to which one might prefer. That being said, my personal choice would be the Esoteric. It sounds incredible in Steve's system.

 

[amey01]

it's merely "coloring" the sound but, if my auditory memory serves me correctly and soon to be reverified with the return of my Cary, these features can make or break how the unit fits any systems overall synergy and the listeners personal biases thereof.

Agree 100%. It's also worth noting that designers can't really do too much in this respect, because samples of their product are tested by all and sundry in the process of reviews, etc. If a Stereophile test (or whatever) shows up any anomalies then it is a little embarrassing for the manufacturer - especially when he trying to ask $megabucks. A little like the well-publicised Goldmund rort a few years ago.

 

[bonzo]

Gordon, Steve (sb6) has the K-03 in his system and I've heard it many times and think it is absolutely wonderful sounding. It does sound different, depending on how much upsampling is selected or which filter is being used. I would love to own one someday. I've also heard the Oppo 105 and the Oppo with the complete Modwright mods and they sounded good, but different from each other and as has already been said, it's so subjective and system/room dependent as to which one might prefer. That being said, my personal choice would be the Esoteric. It sounds incredible in Steve's system.

The Esoteric K01 performed very poorly in two systems when compared to the Lampi, and had a massive upgrade when the clock was added in one of the systems. With the clock, it was great. The owners too agreed, so Lampi wasn't better to only my 'biased' ears

 

[Gordon Gray]

Kedar,

Your opinion and observations.That's all. Enough said.

And I'm really tired hearing about the fu**ing Lampi.

Best,

Gordon

 

[sb6]

The Esoteric K01 performed very poorly in two systems when compared to the Lampi, and had a massive upgrade when the clock was added in one of the systems. With the clock, it was great. The owners too agreed, so Lampi wasn't better to only my 'biased' ears

Bonzo - didn't we have this conversation over at What's Best? ;-)

RCHeliGuy - I respect your opinion, but I mostly disagree. I do agree we are closing in on DACs max capability, but in order to achieve such benefits costs significant $. Ladder DACs and/or multi DAC chip DACs like Esoteric, DCS, etc. with high quality PSUs (sometimes multiple PSUs/unit), multiple custom filters and upsampling capabilities, etc. all make a significant sonic benefit. Also, chassis quality/weight make a difference IMO.

As far as cost - most companies selling DACs aren't very large and aren't selling high volume to be able to leverage economies of scale (if you want to talk budget mainstream players, that's another story). In fact, I would wager Esoteric is probably a bad example to support your case because a) They are purportedly the biggest seller of high-end digital in Asia and b) they can leverage mfr. via Teac and likely get some part purchase and production volume discounts.

Also, Gordon - I have owned the Esoteric D-07, D-05, P-05 and K-03 so I feel I know their sound quite well. I have also heard the Oppo 105, very good unit for the $. I wouldn't mind getting one to leverage as a transport for DVDA and Blu-ray. If you're in the budget range of a K-01, I would suggest the TotalDAC - best digital I have ever heard, significantly better than the MSB highest end stack.

Steve - thanks for the praise, your system is far from shabby (love that TT + new cart!)

 

[bonzo]

Kedar,

Your opinion and observations.That's all. Enough said.

And I'm really tired hearing about the fu**ing Lampi.

Best,

Gordon

Yes it sucks to hear about a cheaper product much better in SQ to 3/3 ears than a much costlier product. If there is anyone here with the budget looking for a source who has not yet auditioned the Big 7 or the GG they are biased, that's all.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Kedar,

I have no buyers remorse as a result of my decisions and I don't think anyone else who has participated in this thread has expressed otherwise.

Does it suck? Not for me. I trust my ears (my biases) to drive my purchasing decisions and, in the end, that is the only thing that matters.

A 3 for 3 vote of approval. Hardly a compelling consensus IMHO. Too many variables. Audio is far too subjective, by nature, to justify your assertion.

For those who think the Lampi is the "end all" in DAC technology, I'm glad they are happy.

Have a great evening.

Best,

Gordon