Obsessive hobbies....

MartinLogan Audio Owners Forum

Help Support MartinLogan Audio Owners Forum:

RCHeliGuy

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2015
Messages
1,405
Reaction score
64
Location
United States
Started playing with tactile again.

Ordered a Clark Synthesis TST320 Gold Transducer that runs 10-800 Hz.
My current ButtKicker Concert runs very low and is VERY powerful, but it peters out around 45 Hz.

I've figured out a way to mount this new transducer to my right seat bracket so it won't interfere with motion.
My plan is to split the effects to my seat between the two transducers and put engine rpm and road texture on the Clark while leaving impacts ( hitting a curb), gear shift thunks and wheel slide on the BK. For the moment I'll pull power to my frame mounted transducer, but if I'm very happy with this transducer, I may replace the two Aura's on my foot plate with a single Clark Synthesis and be back to 4 channels.



I've been told by a number of people that splitting the tactile effects works much better
 

RCHeliGuy

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2015
Messages
1,405
Reaction score
64
Location
United States
There is a lot of science in this.

First I installed software that allows me to add equalization, low pass, high pass filters to each tactile channel to tweak them for the particular transducer. The result is that each transducer is optimized and doesn't try to make sounds that I could hear. That doesn't mean they are silent, just that they are not wasting energy making sound rather than tactile. However I can't hear them with my Index off ear headphones at 60% volume while driving.

A guy who has been doing the deep dive on tactile for about a decade considers these two transducers a perfectly matched pair. He had a 5 layer rpm effect that I imported into SimHub and played with. It was very impressive sounding and much better than any effect I've had to date. I boosted the Concert below 20Hz and some effects are as low a 7Hz which definitely come through loud and clear!

The TST329 has a great 35-120Hz range and goes well above that. The Concert starts about 5Hz and starts to peter out at about 35Hz on up. Layering effects between the Buttkicker Concert which is a bruiser and the TST which is reasonably powerful but fills in a lot of texture works very well.

I'm very impressed with everything I can feel. Now I need to carefully dial it back so it isn't quite so overwhelming.

I've got a Behringer NX4-6000 ~ $500 driving these.
It's 4 channels of 750W at 4ohm and 1500W at 2ohm.

On the seat
BK Concert 2 ohm rated for 1500 watts. $269
TST329 4 ohm rated for 135W rms 400W peak. $400

Foot plate
2 x Aurasound AST-2B-4 Pro $50 each

I'm currently debating whether I want to put a TST329 under my foot plate in place of the two Aura's.

DualTransducers_6767.jpg
 

RCHeliGuy

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2015
Messages
1,405
Reaction score
64
Location
United States
I'm currently looking at sticking half a dozen 40W exciters to the back of my seat. They'd be in a 3P + 3P configuration.

My amplifier would see a 240W 2.66 ohm impedance, but the excites are out of inventory and not expected back until mid September.

exciters3P3P_6769.jpg
 

ttocs

Well-known member
MLO Supporter
Joined
Aug 10, 2014
Messages
487
Reaction score
125
Location
Highland Park, IL
I enjoy seeing the progress also.
I also prefer being a builder of better life, supporting others in their endeavors, and sharing knowledge.
 

RCHeliGuy

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2015
Messages
1,405
Reaction score
64
Location
United States
Believe it or not, this is actually starting to get more audio related in terms of the tactile effects I'm working on.

I'm learning a lot about transducers and how to apply them. This ends up being about as complex as an ATMOS system if you get it fully setup.

I just pulled a couple $50 Aura's off my foot plate and installed a Clark Synthesis TST429 Platinum ( $600 )
In addition I've also just ordered a couple Earthquake MQB-1's to go on either side of this.

The TST's are great for 60-150Hz sensations.
The BK-CT is good for 10-35Hz
The MQB-1's are good for 15-40Hz
Fortunately my Behringer NX4-6000 has the power to drive these well.

I'll be adding some exciters that will stick to the outside of my seat shell which are mostly good in the 100-200Hz range. These will be used in a number of creative ways including using some delay from the front of my seat to the back, but will also extend the engine rpm effects which currently use my BK-CT more at idle and then transitions to the TST and would work its way to the exciters. The rpm effects are very complex and include 5 layers that bring in all the types of transducers along the rpm range to create a very believable engine revving sensation. I'll likely get another 4 channel amplifier to drive the exciters.

What I'm doing is very different from someone adding large transducers to their furniture to enhance the kick of your subwoofer system, but I am learning a few things about these.

Buttkickers are more prone to make noise, to burn up and to piston(violent resonance issues). They are greatly improved using equalization.
TST's despite their claims are not nearly as powerful at lower frequencies. The TST429 I just got is supposed to go down to 5Hz, but it is very powerful in the mid bass area and not below it.

My take away so far is that if you want some serious shaking the Earthquake Q10B is the way to go. ($600) It has serious sharp impacts and is more musical. If you bolt one of these inside a viewing seat and provide some serious power to drive it it will accentuate your bass through the seat of your pants! So for you home theater guys who want some serious shaking going on, this looks like a very sound bet.


Installed_6784.jpg
 
Last edited:

Lightloopy

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 25, 2010
Messages
241
Reaction score
95
Location
Delaware
Now... the forum is called obsessive hobbies - and I enjoy how deep the dive can be.
It also reflects the breadth of knowledge members here have beyond the audio world.
Thanks for sharing.
 

RCHeliGuy

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2015
Messages
1,405
Reaction score
64
Location
United States
BTW while the 4,000W 16" subwoofer in my media room will go well below 20Hz and shake the walls while not drawing attention to where it is located, I'm starting to think that having transducers installed in my furniture could have a dramatic impact when watching action movies. And we are about to replace the furniture in our media room, so this might be an interesting time to consider doing that.

The cool part is that I already have PLENTY of high power Class D amplification for my rig that scale up to 1500W into 2 ohms for each of 4 channels. I could just as easily drive it based on the LFE channels from my surround sound system and I'm already using a quick release 8 pole Neutrik connector to drive 4 channels.
 

Robert D

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 21, 2020
Messages
895
Reaction score
168
BTW while the 4,000W 16" subwoofer in my media room will go well below 20Hz and shake the walls while not drawing attention to where it is located, I'm starting to think that having transducers installed in my furniture could have a dramatic impact when watching action movies. And we are about to replace the furniture in our media room, so this might be an interesting time to consider doing that.

The cool part is that I already have PLENTY of high power Class D amplification for my rig that scale up to 1500W into 2 ohms for each of 4 channels. I could just as easily drive it based on the LFE channels from my surround sound system and I'm already using a quick release 8 pole Neutrik connector to drive 4 channels.
Wondering how you'll run the speaker cables to the furniture. If the floor is hardwood like what we have, you'll need to drill holes and run the wire under the floor. My wife wouldn't be too excited. I'd like it though.
 

RCHeliGuy

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2015
Messages
1,405
Reaction score
64
Location
United States
Wondering how you'll run the speaker cables to the furniture. If the floor is hardwood like what we have, you'll need to drill holes and run the wire under the floor. My wife wouldn't be too excited. I'd like it though.
My current subwoofer has a wireless receiver and just needs to be near a power outlet, but these transducers are definitely not self amplified.

My media room is sitting on concrete in my basement. I'll need to think about this. Thanks for bringing it up!
 

AlmostHome

Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2021
Messages
12
Reaction score
5
Obsessive Hobbies? Other than audio?

My wife and I have to park outside because 1 garage has a four wheeled toy, and the other has my 3 glass kilns! She is the best and doesn't bat an eyelash, even when her car is in the snow.*

*Full disclosure: I did get remote start for her car, but she didn't even want it - until she had it!
 

RCHeliGuy

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2015
Messages
1,405
Reaction score
64
Location
United States
At the advice of my tactile sensei, I cancelled my other order and had a change of direction.
This solution will be a bit more complicated and requires some machining, but I will get a BK-CT / TST pairing on my foot plate to match my seat.

I've just started to see the potential of the BK/TST pairing on my seat. To say the tactile response I'm getting is stunning would be an understatement. These two transducers together are very complementary. I'm using them together or, or as two stage effects or completely separately for other effects. Having more than one keeps the signals from muddying each other up, but when they work together it is magical.

Yesterday I could feel going from asphalt to bumping over the curb to being on grass and it felt so real I started laughing.

After experiencing some of the goodness that my friend has been preaching for a while now, I will be adding another 4 channel amplifier and 4 exciters for my seat. The magic continues there because the exciters operate in yet another frequency range and the effects you get with them can be the result of a front back delay, or side to side delay in addition to reinforcing other tactile multi-layer effects. There will be one on the left side of my seat, left back of my seat, right side and right back. I'm really getting excited about feeling what is possible. I've just sensed the possibilities.

My friend is now offering consulting services for tactile configurations on sim rigs and once I have all my gear in place, he has a number of multi-layer effects designed to work with them. After that I can work with him to see what my rig is capable of.

BKCTaluminum_6789.jpg
 

Robert D

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 21, 2020
Messages
895
Reaction score
168
At the advice of my tactile sensei, I cancelled my other order and had a change of direction.
This solution will be a bit more complicated and requires some machining, but I will get a BK-CT / TST pairing on my foot plate to match my seat.

I've just started to see the potential of the BK/TST pairing on my seat. To say the tactile response I'm getting is stunning would be an understatement. These two transducers together are very complementary. I'm using them together or, or as two stage effects or completely separately for other effects. Having more than one keeps the signals from muddying each other up, but when they work together it is magical.

Yesterday I could feel going from asphalt to bumping over the curb to being on grass and it felt so real I started laughing.

After experiencing some of the goodness that my friend has been preaching for a while now, I will be adding another 4 channel amplifier and 4 exciters for my seat. The magic continues there because the exciters operate in yet another frequency range and the effects you get with them can be the result of a front back delay, or side to side delay in addition to reinforcing other tactile multi-layer effects. There will be one on the left side of my seat, left back of my seat, right side and right back. I'm really getting excited about feeling what is possible. I've just sensed the possibilities.

My friend is now offering consulting services for tactile configurations on sim rigs and once I have all my gear in place, he has a number of multi-layer effects designed to work with them. After that I can work with him to see what my rig is capable of.

View attachment 21828
Really cool that you can feel running up on the curb. When I run my car at Mid Ohio track I use that feedback to help me lap faster. We all use the curbs a lot. Can it do anything to simulate going up and down hills? Is the rig able to do that?
 

Lightloopy

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 25, 2010
Messages
241
Reaction score
95
Location
Delaware
I don't have 10,000 die cast cars but this may be in the obsessive department.
Been doing the coffee thing for about 9 yrs. This is my new replacement. Like other obsessions-the rabbit hole can be deep....
 

Attachments

RCHeliGuy

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2015
Messages
1,405
Reaction score
64
Location
United States
Really cool that you can feel running up on the curb. When I run my car at Mid Ohio track I use that feedback to help me lap faster. We all use the curbs a lot. Can it do anything to simulate going up and down hills? Is the rig able to do that?
Some. The motion systems will move with the terrain. I'm learning about accelerative effects using delay between transducers that apparently are convincing. If you have a full chassis mover you get real heave so it can push you up at the bottom of a hill and drop as you go over a crest to.

Still working on my front footplate tactile solution. I'm getting pressure to pick up some DSP's for my existing tactile amplifier and upcoming tactile amplifier.

Solution_6794.jpg
 

RCHeliGuy

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2015
Messages
1,405
Reaction score
64
Location
United States
I don't have 10,000 die cast cars but this may be in the obsessive department.
Been doing the coffee thing for about 9 yrs. This is my new replacement. Like other obsessions-the rabbit hole can be deep....
That looks like serious hardware! I know a guy whole roasts his own beans. He's also very particular about how he crushes/grinds the beans.

I had an uncle who used to collect antique die cast cars. He would drive all over the countryside looking for them.
 

RCHeliGuy

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2015
Messages
1,405
Reaction score
64
Location
United States
Got my new isolated foot plate supporting two higher end transducers completed and mounted to my rig.

build_6803.jpg


This shows the plate with a TST329 under the plate and a BK-CT behind it.
plateComplete_6806.jpg


Installed on my rig.
newfootplate_6811.jpg
newfootplate_6810.jpg

newfootplate_6813.jpg
 

ttocs

Well-known member
MLO Supporter
Joined
Aug 10, 2014
Messages
487
Reaction score
125
Location
Highland Park, IL
. . . . and where's the third shoe for the dead pedal?

Speaking of dead pedals and clutches, is your rig setup for both clutch and clutch-less operation? So you could shift "old school" H pattern with clutch needed for every shift, or sequential with clutch only needed to get going.
 
Top