new (to me) CLS

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hakalugi

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its the story you wish would happen to you. talking with an acquaintance, a mention of some MLs he has in an attic, sitting unused. Your eyes light up... "would you be willing to parth with them?" "sure, you can have 'em... along with the Meitner monoblocks" - "ummm, let me at least trade you an amp" "...fine"

:eek:

so, i'll be picking up a pair of CLS with serial numbers in the 34xx range. Black stators and honey-oak looking frames on Monday.

Some questions:

1) should i remove and test the electrical portion for Voltage levels? (they're at least a decade old, yes?, and been in a storage loft for a while) if so, what levels should i expect?

2) when last used, over 3 years ago, when moved to be in front of an large exhaust-A/C vent, an occaisional 'crack/zap' would occur independent of volume. Is this lint, etc? or indicative of a bad diaphragm?

3) i've browsed and see some later CLS folks have had their diaphragms upgraded. Is this still offered? and what's the upside and ball-park cost?

I'd like to get them in to my HT and test them out But after that, what center channel do you recommend to match the 'sound' of these?

as a HT L/R pair, what HighPass freq do you find fits with these units?

thanks,

Hak
 
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hakalugi

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ok. found the high-pass answer: don't. just run full range and supplement with subs (so says jpower, etc)

thanks for any other info you can provide.

Hak
 

Wardsweb

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Don't judge them right off the bat. Take some time trying different placements from the back wall and sidewall. CLS placement is critical to bring them to their full potential. Have fun, enjoy and congratulations.
 

DTB300

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hakalugi said:
3) i've browsed and see some later CLS folks have had their diaphragms upgraded. Is this still offered? and what's the upside and ball-park cost?
Jeff Z. just did this and I think the cost was around $900. Jeff?

Dan
 

zaphod

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hakalugi said:
i "would you be willing to parth with them?" "sure, you can have 'em... along with the Meitner monoblocks"
...
so, i'll be picking up a pair of CLS with serial numbers in the 34xx range. Black stators and honey-oak looking frames on Monday.
pretty much identical to my setup - a pair of meitner monoblocks and a pair of honey oak CLS of the same vintage. congratulations, they are an EXCELLENT match. you'll probably notice that the binding posts on the CLS are identical to those on the meitners. no coincidence.

hakalugi said:
1) should i remove and test the electrical portion for Voltage levels?
i dont know if the electricals can/should be run without the panels. i would however consider bring the speakers up on a variac if they have been sitting for a while.

hakalugi said:
2) when last used, over 3 years ago, when moved to be in front of an large exhaust-A/C vent, an occaisional 'crack/zap' would occur
part of the joys of 'stats. it's reasonably normal. when i replaced the furnace in my old house, mine would sympathetically "zap" with the piezo ignition even though the speakers were on a circuit separate from the furnace.

you should give the panels a really good vacuum before charging them - front and back :) you might also consider popping the panels and showering them, but don't get the tape wet.

hakalugi said:
3) i've browsed and see some later CLS folks have had their diaphragms upgraded. Is this still offered? and what's the upside and ball-park cost?
i talked with ML a while back to order some boxes and Jim Powers said that the price for a pair of panels for my vintage CLS is about 700 US dollars. pretty cheap if you ask me.

hakalugi said:
I'd like to get them in to my HT and test them out But after that, what center channel do you recommend to match the 'sound' of these?
none. i personally use a ML logos center channel, but all that did was make the center channel info less prone to the sweet spot. that is, people at either end of the couch still get the voices coming from dead center. before i had the logos, if you were in the sweet spot, or standing back at the end of the room, the pair of CLS would matrix the center channel information bang in the middle. i had people think that the sound was coming from the TV between the speakers instead from the pair of CLS.

so you can get away with no center channel speaker if you like and add that in later. the CLS is really an amazing speaker.

hakalugi said:
as a HT L/R pair, what HighPass freq do you find fits with these units?
i only use the sub for TV/laserdisc/dvd and have it defined as "not there" for music. the sub (home built) is set to 120Hz i believe, but now that it is broken in, i will be adjusting that.



however all this said, the single best advice i can offer is to call up ML and talk to Jim Powers and explain your windfall and what they suggest you do to get these up and running.

Martin Logan really is a company whose interest is in people getting enjoyment from the gear and not in getting cash from the wallet.

lance
 

roberto

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hakalugi said:
its the story you wish would happen to you. talking with an acquaintance, a mention of some MLs he has in an attic, sitting unused. Your eyes light up... "would you be willing to parth with them?" "sure, you can have 'em... along with the Meitner monoblocks" - "ummm, let me at least trade you an amp" "...fine"

:eek:

so, i'll be picking up a pair of CLS with serial numbers in the 34xx range. Black stators and honey-oak looking frames on Monday.

Some questions:

1) should i remove and test the electrical portion for Voltage levels? (they're at least a decade old, yes?, and been in a storage loft for a while) if so, what levels should i expect?

2) when last used, over 3 years ago, when moved to be in front of an large exhaust-A/C vent, an occaisional 'crack/zap' would occur independent of volume. Is this lint, etc? or indicative of a bad diaphragm?

3) i've browsed and see some later CLS folks have had their diaphragms upgraded. Is this still offered? and what's the upside and ball-park cost?

I'd like to get them in to my HT and test them out But after that, what center channel do you recommend to match the 'sound' of these?

as a HT L/R pair, what HighPass freq do you find fits with these units?

thanks,

Hak
Hola and welcome to the family. I would suggest you to first of all, plugg them to the A.C. mains and wait at least 30 minutes. If there is a bad electronic component due to many time of being unplugged, and inspect visualy of any voltage leak. Take off the four nuts that are securing the top of the electronics, but be carefull. Letal voltage in present there. PLEASE, NO KIDS OR PETS AROUND!!!. Before you start with this procedure, you can take off from the circuit boards, all the dust with the help of a brush and the vacuum cleaner. Once you have clean the boards, plugg them and wait those 30 minutes...if you see a spark, or hear noise at the boards, you might have a voltage leak, and it is better to replace the bad electronic component (s). But I have good news also...the kind and the quality of the electronic components that Martin Logan use, the 90 % is free of problem. This advise is for caution only...and I think it is better to be alert of any problem.
I love my CLSIIz, and they are one of the best speakers. When you are ready to play some music, do not crossover it, play them full range and if you want more bass (I don´t think you needed, but many CLS users think they do) the add of a sub will help you with it...happy listening, and regards from Costa Rica,
Roberto.
 

Jeff Zaret

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hakalugi,

Welcome!!

Well everyone has great advice so should should not go wrong.

I would vaccum the electronics and the panels before I plugged anything in to an outlet. The panels I would spend at least 10 minutes vacuuming. Look closely at the panels through the stator and look for "dots" these are dust particles. You want these removed by vacuuming.

If you can not remove all of them do not worry. Washing the panels may another option but I would wait to see how everything works first.

After that I would do what Roberto suggests and plug them in and wait about 30 minutes. They do not take that long to energize but you want to do this after to look and listen for any voltage noises.

After all of this, do some listening to music. Yes run these full range. I do and I have a sub and they are truly amazing.


New panels are $890 USD. I got new panels a few months ago because of noise in the panel and loss of highs on the other.

Good Luck and let us know! :D

Jeff :cool:
 

hakalugi

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zaphod said:
pretty much identical to my setup - a pair of meitner monoblocks
yeah :) i had noticed your gear when lurking.


you should give the panels a really good vacuum before charging them - front and back :) you might also consider popping the panels and showering them, but don't get the tape wet.
vacuum makes sense... what's popping? and by showering you mean what?


none. i personally use a ML logos center channel, but all that did was make the center channel info less prone to the sweet spot. that is, people at either end of the couch still get the voices coming from dead center. before i had the logos, if you were in the sweet spot, or standing back at the end of the room, the pair of CLS would matrix the center channel information bang in the middle. i had people think that the sound was coming from the TV between the speakers instead from the pair of CLS.
what pre/pro did you use to 'phantom' your center? this would be ideal for me seeing as the combination between my projector screen coming down, and my 13 month old reaching-up leaves not much room for a speaker...

thanks lance!
 

hakalugi

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Wardsweb said:
Don't judge them right off the bat. Take some time trying different placements from the back wall and sidewall. CLS placement is critical to bring them to their full potential. Have fun, enjoy and congratulations.
that's what i've read. i've just relocated my gear cabinets away from the front wall (bad place for them anyway in HT) so i can have more flexibility in placements (glad i hadn't made any holes in the drywall yet! :)

thanks,

Hak
 

hakalugi

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Roberto,

Thanks for the sound advice, good thinking, i'll do it all without my dogs and son in the room.

I'll vacuum twice for good measure!

Mucho gusto,

Fernando
aka: hak
 

hakalugi

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Jeff Zaret said:
New panels are $890 USD. I got new panels a few months ago because of noise in the panel and loss of highs on the other.

Good Luck and let us know! :D

Jeff :cool:
thanks for posting Jeff.

I saw your CLSs in the systems page last night :) very cool

i may not be able to wait until Monday to go get them... i'm starting to drool.

i can't remove the monoblocks b/c they're in use, so until they become mine, i'll push the CLSs (after the good advice here is used) with an Acurus 200x3 (3rd ch would be for my center... for now it's a string of Orbs in a line-array) a buddy of mine is a big Rotel fan - so when i saw your sytem after searching for CLS - it made me smile big :D

Fellow network engineer,

Hak
 

zaphod

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hakalugi said:
vacuum makes sense... what's popping? and by showering you mean what?

popping is a discharge, but can be caused by a bunch of stuff. i suspect that the A/C unit was putting dust and dirt onto the panel and it didn't like that.

by showering i mean removing the panels from the oak frame and taking them into the shower with you. a number of people here have done this, although the CLS is a rare shower buddy as popping the panels involves putting a knee against the back of the panel and pushing.

i personnally have never done this...


hakalugi said:
what pre/pro did you use to 'phantom' your center?
i used to use a Sony EP9-ES which is a fair processor, but strictly digital. it does have analog bypass for 5.1 inputs. it's for sale, but i haven't really tried to sell it.

i am currently using a bryston SP1.7 pre/pro that i really like.

pretty much any pre/pro will split the center information across the two front speakers when you don't have a center channel speaker.

lance
 

hakalugi

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here they are...

good news: they're in my basement.

other news: the popping is consistant with loud bass notes, and accompanies a buzzing at the lower right (about 10" up from the bottom right corner, at the edge) - this spot seems to develop a bit of high-freq, too.

at low volumes they sound great. but this is 'nite time' volumes and i can't even get pass this with the spark/pop. so as HT units, in current state, ain't gonna cut it.

I vacuumed for a while and i'll do more in the AM, but the buzzing sound like the diaphragm might be shot...

Lance: i have an ES receiver that i use as my pre/pro, it's only a 555 5.1 so i don't think there's that option. Nice Bryston!

edit: forgot the best part... the sound. wow. yes, open. yes, airy. yes, wide/deep. but the attack is the kicker for me. everything from precussion on Shawn Colvin, to fat analog keyboards on Michael Jackson's "#1's" album, to guitar on John Mayer is fast.

i'm building a folded horn sub for speed (eminance driver is on a truck now...) so hopefully it can hang :) hmmm 700 - 900 for new panels?. m u s t, r e s i s t...
Guess i'll track down JP after trying more vacuuming.
 

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hakalugi

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the spot in question is the filthiest part of the panel. shining a flashlight through the back of the assembly you can see debris on the diaphragm. and 'gunk' (in Fletch's words) on the front stator/grill

so i'll do more cleaning and report back. but whoa, on upright bass it's bad. casual cleaning made it worse (ie: more loose gunk now) but at least that means it might be gunk only - didn't see any ruptures in the membrane.

i'm in the only one that goes cross-eyed when trying to focus on it?
 
D

docknow

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Hak-

You might have a loose panel dampener. See my post of 5-18-05.

-jim
 

hakalugi

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docknow said:
Hak-

You might have a loose panel dampener. See my post of 5-18-05.

-jim

yes, after extensive vacuuming, the popping is gone, and i've localized the buzzing to 50hz - 90hz and at the bottom end of the translucent 'tape' - must be the dampener you mention.

off to read your post...

thanks.
 

hakalugi

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Jim wrote on 5/18:

"I also had buzzing from what you call the "stiffeners" of my CLSz panels. The adhesive piece of ?mylar had partially come loose from the back stator and was touching the panel. I first notice this as a buzz at certain frequencies. I spoke with Jim Powers who told me just to remove this piece, that it is there to dampen the excursion of the panel at high volumes. He said if I had problems after removal, a similar size piece of tape could be applied to the outside of the back stator to the same effect.

I went ahead and did so. A little easier said then done, as it is hard to grab the nearly clear mylar with a set of hemostats and pull it out, but I managed. It is easiest if you can grab one of the corners, but even then it tends to bunch up on the way out. I would pull as much as I could, then cut off what was out with a utility knife, then grab another part with the hemostats and pull out some more. I also used a vacum cleaner when I was pulling it out as a white power (probably dry adhesive) was formed as the piece was compressed. When I was doing this I noticed that 2 of the three pieces had loose spots and so took out another one.

The sound was amazingly better, now much clearer and with more highs than the other speaker (it had been duller before). I then looked at the other speaker and noticed that one or two of it's mylar pieces was starting to come loose and removed them also. Now both panels/speakers were equal and sound great, like I remember them from years ago, but as they slowly lost their highs did not notice. I have had no slapping or over-excursion of my panels playing up to about 95 db levels (using a meter). Jim said I might not, as each panels tension is a little different.

I wanted to post this as a tweak, but have been too busy, but your thread sparked me to write about my experience. My speakers were CLS 1's, then 2's, then 2a's, then Z's, so they have some of the oldest Z panels out there. My advice to all CLS owners is to take a flashlight and a probe and see how tightly adherent these pieces are on their speakers. If they are loose, a very signifigant increase in performance can be had for free by removing them."

thanks.

i'll start with the heat treatment: http://www.martinloganowners.com/~tdacquis/forum/showthread.php?t=124

Based on Jim Power's email to TomDac:

"...
A resonating panel will only buzz on certain notes and at somewhat higher volumes.
A loose damping strip will buzz at almost any frequency and at any volume.
..."

so it may be the tension after all.

if that fails, i'll ask how to remove the dampeners... someone did it recently i think (and used a surgical instrument :) )

thanks,

Hak
 

Jeff Zaret

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Hak,
Before I would remove the stiffener, I would try the blow dryer method first!! I did use that and it did help.

Jeff :cool:
 

hakalugi

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Jeff Zaret said:
Hak,
Before I would remove the stiffener, I would try the blow dryer method first!! I did use that and it did help.

Jeff :cool:
i tried one set of 3 passes on each side at 12"... worked a bit. need to do a freq sweep to see if it's still most acute at 50 and 89hz like before (and most notes inbetween).

the same music can be turned up louder before it rear it's ugly head... so i guess a little more can hurt.

thanks!
 

Jeff Zaret

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Hak,
What is the power of the blow dryer? I used one that was either 1600 watts. I got between 6 & 9 incehs from the panel. Start at the top and work your way down. Do the outsides first and do not spend too much time in the middle. What you want is for the diaphram to stretch back towards the ends.
Do both sides then play some music and listen.

Jeff :cool:
 
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