HDMI cables / Worth extra cost?

[Gordon Gray]

Hi all,

One more request for input.

I read a CNET article effectively saying that there's no difference between expensive cables and their bargain basement brothers.

Can get the "Media Bridge Ultra Series" on Amazon for $10 (2M) cable.

Any input would be appreciated.

Gordon

 

[JordanD]

I have done extensive testing for myself, and this question almost starts a war. I can honestly say that yes it makes a difference. I was able to scrounge a few cables together from myself and a few friends. Most of the cables we used were from Audioquest and a few different random generic brands. I did this around the time when I had a close friend buy an Audioquest Diamond HDMI ($1099.99) so I wanted to test it out and see what I wanted to do. He had a AQ Vodka that he was replacing for the Diamond. I had an AQ Chocolate and Cinnamon around, and we both had a few off-brands that we weren't using. We are both obviously believers, but we wanted a skeptic to come over to keep us in check so to speak. So we invited our mutual friend over who we often argue this topic with. We did audio and video tests, not only that but I held a pseudo blind experiment where I was the only one who knew what was plugged in.

Without boring you with the details (unless you want me to) I was pleasantly surprised and our skeptic friend was cursing our names as he left the house because he said he had to go buy new cables hahaha. The interesting thing was that they were both able to identify which cable was the Diamond, but the other cables we mixed and often confused, and there wasn't really a consensus about it, but the undeniable thing with all of use is that there was a perceivable difference between all of them.

I can go into more detail if you want but there is just a short synopsis.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Thanks Jordan.

When you say perceivable differences, what exactly were they from a audio and / or video perspective?

Based upon some further research, my current inclination is to buy the Signal Cable product.

GG

 

[|Tch0rT|]

 

[JordanD]

Thanks Jordan.

When you say perceivable differences, what exactly were they from a audio and / or video perspective?

Based upon some further research, my current inclination is to buy the Signal Cable product.

GG

Gordon,

Well again I am going to plug AQ because that is was I use, and I have a had the pleasure to talk to the AQ sales rep two or three times (really nice and smart guy too) but from how I understand it and how they describe it is that they strive to make audio better (hens 'AudioQuest'), but they found the video increase was a "happy accident." In video I admit the difference was getting harder and harder to spot the 'higher' up we went, but they audio is where the better cables shined. Cleaner tighter bass, more details, a quieter and broader sound stage. And each cable was different in its own way, but the Diamond was by far the best, being 100% silver and DBS, so it only makes sense. And for $1000 for a 1m cable I hope so hahaha. For me it was a cool experience and now it was up to me to decide where I 'fall' price wise. As far as video goes, the biggest difference was depth of field. Better cables seemed to give this added depth to the picture, and that is due to the contrast being less "muddied." Colors seemed a bit more vibrant, and motion seemed a bit smoother. For me I think I will be upgrading my cables to AQ Carbon (model name). It has 5% silver and the price isn't bad either! Although I am considering the 'Vodka.'

Do cheaper cables work, and work beautifully? Yes, and I would never say otherwise, BUT the better cables were in fact better. As for Signal Cable I have no experience with that company. But if you want to, AQ has a 40 page PDF on their site that just talks cable theory. Its actually a good read, and they talk about more then just HDMI. Sure they plug themselves a bit but it mainly just talks about cables in general. Solid read and I sugest it to everyone.

If you are wondering the difference from the cables we were looking at, all of the AQ cables just varied in the amount of silver in the cable. But between those and the others it was mainly geometry, stranded or solid core, and metal type. Which is all talked about in that PDF.

Hope it helps! Ill be happy to answer any other questions as best I can.

Jordan

P.S. Monster cables are a scam, they put data limiters in their cables so they can create different level of cables. AudioQuest's Pearl ($30) smokes any level of Monster.

 

[c.hack]

If you are using HDMI for transferring digital signals, the cables are simply transmitting 0s and 1s. You need to ensure you are using cables rated to the bandwidth you need and are shielded properly for the environment. However, there is no amount of money that will make bits (0s and 1s) be any different than 0s and 1s. Any objective evidence to the contrary would be appreciated, but my decades of network experience indicates that paying more than $1 per foot has no benefit.

 

[Mark.Yudkin]

The Media Bridge Ultra Series able is a certified category 2 cable. That independent certification by the HDMI organization is a clear and unequivocal statement that the cable fully meets the requirements. It also means that you cannot improve on any aspect of its performance by spending more, and that any anecdotal evidence to the contrary is a figment of the imagination, or a sign of drinking too much vodka.

 

[|Tch0rT|]

You're just seeing a placebo effect. Show some hard cold data instead of snake oil salesmen lingo.

If you pay more than $10 for 6ft of HDMI you're paying too much.

Monoprice.com

(Edit I took too long deciding what I was going to write so now there's 2 posts before mine hah)

 

[FoxMulder]

I'll throw in my 2 cents worth, (that's probably all it's worth). I also did extensive demos (A/B'ing) with cables from numerous companies up to about the $250 level. I ended up with the Monoprice HDMI cables at around 10 bucks each or so. These performed as well, if not better than anything.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Fox,

Worth alot actually. Thank you and everyone else who offered advice.

GG

 

[JordanD]

Well you see you cannot transfer 1's and 0's physically haha thats asinine. You are transferring a very low electronic signature that once it arrives at the other end it can then be translated into said 1 or 0. That being said, Maxwell and Faraday taught us that a current carrying wire produces a magnetic field, and that has various effects on the electrons in said magnetic field. This has various effects most notably micro resonances, and jitter. On top of that the resistance of the cable can also factor into this. This is partially why solid core wire is being used more and more. You CAN have a better digital signal. Hell we all use FLAC files over MP3, why? I thought digital is digital and cant be made better? Its only 1' and 0's. BUT if the timing is off and then the signal has distortion. If digital is digital then no digital file can be improved on by extension of these other arguments, this includes DAC's.

I urge everyone to go speak with a physics professor and do their own research, rather then follow the crowd and use the buzz words of the day. I have done this, and I didn't do the "tests" on myself I did them on others. Does a placebo effect happen? Yes it can, BUT it can also happen in the other direction. Those clouded by the journalists on these various websites can also subconsciously force themselves to not see a difference. I was lucky to have a group of people who genuinely wanted to critically listen and watch to see or hear the difference. I had people on both sides of the argument and we were able to reach a point to where we all said yes there is a difference.

 

[Hocky]

Well you see you cannot transfer 1's and 0's physically haha thats asinine. You are transferring a very low electronic signature that once it arrives at the other end it can then be translated into said 1 or 0. That being said, Maxwell and Faraday taught us that a current carrying wire produces a magnetic field, and that has various effects on the electrons in said magnetic field. This has various effects most notably micro resonances, and jitter.

The chances of having error rates in an hdmi cable are pretty damn slim. The only time it may be worth while to spend the money is if you're doing a long run, but then there are still better methods.

You CAN have a better digital signal. Hell we all use FLAC files over MP3, why? I thought digital is digital and cant be made better? Its only 1' and 0's. BUT if the timing is off and then the signal has distortion.

Invalid argument - mp3 vs flac is not just a 1/0's argument like the cables. Both of the formats definitively alter the 1/0's. One of them does it better than the other. The cable does not alter the bits, at least we hope not.

If digital is digital then no digital file can be improved on by extension of these other arguments, this includes DAC's.

Again, invalid argument. The way that a DAC interprets incoming square data and turns it into waves is entirely proprietary from DAC to DAC. They're all just guessing and filling in the blanks - definitively altering the signal in their own way. Whether or not I believe that quality modern DAC's sound much different from eachother, well.......

This is what I know: if I can run cheap industrial CAT6 300 feet through a building along side 6 gauge electrical cables and transfer at about a gigabit speed with 0 error rate, then I am pretty confident that any quality HDMI cable can transfer 10gb over its 19 pins across a 6 foot run without error.

 

[Cat Blu]

The chances of having error rates in an hdmi cable are pretty damn slim. The only time it may be worth while to spend the money is if you're doing a long run, but then there are still better methods.

This is what I know: if I can run cheap industrial CAT6 300 feet through a building along side 6 gauge electrical cables and transfer at about a gigabit speed with 0 error rate, then I am pretty confident that any quality HDMI cable can transfer 10gb over its 19 pins across a 6 foot run without error.

Love this thread. The willingness to believe and the ability to be parted from our hard earned cash is endless!

I set up a long run hdmi that out pace my blutooth wireless keyboard and it was more than enough to get a clean signal to the tv and receiver. 35ft from the office to the receiver from Monoprice for 30$.

 

[JordanD]

Sorry it has taken so long for a reply. The new semester started and its time to buckle down.

But I never said that cheap cables dont work, I would never say that. I would be lying if I did, but I do believe in better digital cables. Whether it is Dig-coax, Optical, USB, or HDMI. I have heard and seen the difference. I have also done a lot of my own 'research' and I talk to my Physics professor and Circuits professor a lot about this stuff and they seem to validate me quite a bit. Mainly about metals and material sciences, because that interests me a lot.

I have heard the difference and seen the difference, and it is my money, so if it makes a difference to me and makes my experience better then what do you care? I am not loosing sleep over my money being gone. I am more or less arguing the fact that a signal can be better preserved therefore the micro resonances are minimized. There is no such thing as a perfect cable...

 

[Bruce Weiland]

................ I have heard the difference and seen the difference, ...................... There is no such thing as a perfect cable...

Jordan, I don't want to bring a knife to gun fight. In fact I don't want to be in this fight at all, but you are getting so much flack from the other side I thought I would throw in my $0.015 cents.

1st to the topic of "seeing" the video difference with HDMI, I haven't done the comparisons yet so can not speak from experience. But.......... as to audio and digital cables (some say 0 and 1's) I can.

I (as many, many others) do hear a difference. Hell I don't know why that is. Most of the time I am sober, so it can't be the wine (or beer).

Yes, and at 65 (in two months) my high frequency hearing in not what it used to be, but with over 40 years of audio experience I still CAN hear differences.

I remember back in the late 70's, when I ran an appointment only audio store in So. Cal, how engineering types (no disrespect intended, just the general class that would come up with the following argument) would tell me that there could be no difference in the sound of an interconnect cable, or power cable after a certain gauge was reached because of the "math" and they could show me on paper. There was no reason to listen to the differences, because their "science" said it did not exist!

I think we all know how that turned out. Didn't the most educated minds use to believe the earth was flat and the electron was the smallest atomic particle?

I did not buy a CD player (perfect sound forever) until they were on the market for over 10 years, and then one that had tubes to buffer the output. Even then it took a couple of more decades of development before digital really began to sound good to me.

By the way, back then I also knew engineering types that told me there was no difference between ANY CD players and that the CD sounded better than my vinyl, and they could PROVE it with their math.

With 9 years of college and decades of experience in the medical field, I can tell you that the "scientific" truth appears to be a moving target.

I think we can all agree that what we perceive from our "sound systems" is going on in our heads, being interpreted in our brains, and none of our brains seemed to be wired the same.

I get that many can not "hear or see" any difference, but that does not mean they do not exist. Depending on what each of our particular listening and brain interpreting focuses on, there many be no differences.

For color blind people two cards with dots on them may appear EXACTLY the same. However, for those "with eyes to see" the number or image on one card jumps out at them compared to the other.

I have three daughters, and a grandson (only four months old). Some people think all my daughter look like me, some think some of them look like me. Others think they all look like my beautiful wife. A lot of people look at my grandson and say he looks EXACTLY like me. His mother sees no resemblance to me at all. I think it depends on what features a person is tuned to or focuses on.

Why would it be any different with sound. It is not the eyes, and not the ears totally, it is what the brain is doing with those electrical impulses (gee are those 0's and 1's).

So, yes I hear differences in analog interconnects, and power cables and have for almost 40 years. I also hear differences in digital cables, USB and coax S/PDIF. Maybe I will SEE differences in HDMI video, when I get around to checking it. But if I don't I just don't see how I can say the differences don't exist, with confidence.
I would be able to say, they don't exist for me in my system.

Now IF you BELIEVE they can not exist, then fine, state so, as many have done above. However, it would be nice if you could include a small bit of information like, "I know there can be no differences because my SCIENCE says so, and there is no reason to compare." Or, "I know there can be no differences because my SCIENCE says so, and have done a comparison. In MY system there was no difference." And please realize there may be someone out there with the same components as you who DOES see a difference.

Well there you go. That is my $0.015 worth. I had intended to add a sentence or two of support for Jordan. I think I got a "little" carried away there. So, go ahead, rail away at me, my opinion, and my experience. However, don't be surprised if I have nothing more to say on this topic. In fact be ecstatic that you don't have to read any more of my unscientific drivel, at least on this thread.

Bruce

 

[tsv_1]

I'll throw in my 2 cents worth, (that's probably all it's worth). I also did extensive demos (A/B'ing) with cables from numerous companies up to about the $250 level. I ended up with the Monoprice HDMI cables at around 10 bucks each or so. These performed as well, if not better than anything.

I've been nothing but pleased with every monoprice order I've ever placed. Build quailty has always been very good to excellent, price is absolutely unbeatable, and shipping is fast.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Bruce,

Thanks for your observations.

Gordon

 

[JLasher22443]

Hey Gordon,

Well I can tell you from experience, that in my own personal testing, HDMI cables do not matter, brand or cost. Also below is a CNET review which states on page 3 the following: CNET strongly recommends cheap HDMI cables widely available from online retailers instead of the expensive counterparts sold in your local electronics store.

http://reviews.cnet.com/hdmi-guide/

Now I can tell you when I redid my room I wanted to test the difference for myself since I needed a 40 foot long HDMI cable. So when I had my projector disconnected I tried a bunch different cables that I had.

What I had in my possession was a Top of the Line HDMI cable that I got from Tweeter which cost me an arm and a leg. It was a 20 foot cable to put my DTV Box in another part of the room at the time. I'm pretty sure it was AudioQuest but I'd have to look at it when I get home to see if it has markings on it, but I remember it was outrageously priced because it cost almost as much as my MX3000 remote.

So now I knew I had a great quality cable to test, now all I needed to find were some others to test. So I took a look around and found a 6 foot Monster HDMI which was about $50 I think then I grabbed a left over HDMI cable from my XBox, which was a free and cheap cable and also a RocketFish I had laying around.

I set the projector up and tested all of them. I couldn't tell the difference at all. I even had my wife come in and let her see the difference and she couldn't either. Now this kind of pi$$ed me off but made me Happy at the same time. So at least now I knew I didn't have to spend the big money again on another cable but I did now know that I got shafted by Tweeter a few years back.

Now let me throw a wrench into the mix for you. While I was at Best Buy looking at the HDMI cables I found an HDMI Coupling. Yes that's right, a coupling. So to see if I could save money, I purchased it and a 20' RocketFish HDMI cable and went home to test. I thought if I could tell the difference I would just take it back and order a 40 foot cable instead. Well I did the same tests again and couldn't tell the difference. This time my brother-in-law was the judge with me and neither of us could tell the difference. So I coupled them together, the 20' AudioQuest HDMI and the RocketFish and ran them through my ceiling.

After the install was completed I have had friends come over and say my systems picture looks even better now since I mounted it to the ceiling. So in my opinion they do not matter.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Thanks for the comments Jason.

I think we have consensus.

Gordon

 

[Bruce Weiland]

Jason,

Thanks. Exactly the kind of report that I think has credibility. You did the test, you got your results, and made your decision based on YOUR experience. As the Aussie's would say, "Good on ya."

Bruce