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Fixing "hole in the middle" imaging

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beanbag

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Hello,

My problem is that the stereo image seems to have too much stuff coming from the speakers, and not enough from in between. I have tried a few different speaker placements and played around with acoustic foam as well. Right now, the speakers are already closer to each other than they are to me. Anybody know what causes this, and what I can do to "fix" this problem? Thanks
 

kwr

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Hi Beanbag,

It would be seriously helpful if you could give us a detailed description of your room or some photographs. I'm sure a lot of people would be happy to step up with an opinion if a little more information was available.

Kevin
 

Peter Hogan

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Hi,
Another thing to check is the speaker phasing, if it is wrong, you'll get that effect.

Peter
 

sleepysurf

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I suffered from the same problem, due to my large screen TV and pier cabinet with glass doors. My solution was to toe-in the speakers, ultimately even more extreme than my system pictures shows. I have also brought the speakers 3 1/2 ft out from the back wall, which really helps. Another option I have read about is placing silk silk trees behind the speakers to help diffuse the rear reflection. I second the recommendation to post a picture of your setup.
 

MarkNewbie

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Someone on here made a suggestion that you hang towels over the back of the speakers as a way of determining if the distance to the wall was a factor. I had the same problem as you do and when I toed mine in, it helped a lot. My speakers are exactly 7 feet apart and 1.5 feet from the back wall. Toeing them in made all the difference in the world. I have a test CD from Stereophile magazine that enabled me to make sure that I was phased correctly. Hope this helps.

Oh, and posting a picture would help with additional ideas.
 

C.A.P

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once in a while I get a goofy stereo picture, almost like the insturments are to seperated or it feels I am listining to moniters in a studio, I came to the conclusion that there are alot of poorly mixed cd,s
 

kach22i

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Funny, I've never had this problem with any of my Mono records. :)

I've love a good chunk of spinning 33 rpm vinyl (in mono).

I have this one record in stereo and mono - the mono is so tight sounding, love it.


 

C.A.P

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what a great record, I have the cd and was shopping the other day and it was right on the shelf in the budget pile ,made me mad as it is the staple jazz album of all time
 

zaphod

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C.A.P said:
what a great record, I have the cd and was shopping the other day and it was right on the shelf in the budget pile ,made me mad as it is the staple jazz album of all time
yeah, i have it in CD, and stereo vinyl. i matched them up to compare and was surprised at the results.

i'd also like to get it on reel, but haven't gotten around to it.
 

DTB300

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zaphod said:
yeah, i have it in CD, and stereo vinyl. i matched them up to compare and was surprised at the results.
FYI...Take Five is also available on SACD for those interested.

Dan
 

kach22i

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zaphod said:
yeah, i have it in CD, and stereo vinyl. i matched them up to compare and was surprised at the results.
So?

Give us the short version.

CD: Crisp & fast but shallow and hollow?

LP: Full bodied, made your toe tap and your ears smile?


What were the results?

I have a few of the songs on a Jazz sampler CD. Starts out with a bang but does not keep me in the room for long - can't put my finger on it.
 

zaphod

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kach22i said:
So?

CD: Crisp & fast but shallow and hollow?
LP: Full bodied, made your toe tap and your ears smile?
the next time you sneak into one of my listening sessions (since you were obviously there), feel free to bring the snacks :) muffins are nice and quiet, crackers and popcorn make too much noise.

the surprising part was the high-end, the CD didn't reach as high as the LP, and the detailing was less than on the LP. so, while the CD produced a constant "zchingzchingzching" the vinyl produced a nice tight "tzing tzing tzing"

as for what is more accurate, well, i wasn't there during the session, but having spent many an hour near live cymbals, i find the LP more accurate.

the "toe tapping" involvement reminds me of the Linn salesman who would play a piece and then ask "okay, which compenent had you more involved - which one made you move with the music?" don't get me wrong, i still enjoy my LP12, and it is a good metric of a system.

and yes, the LP had me more involved - or as today's business pundits would have it, more engaged
 

zaphod

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beanbag said:
Hello,

My problem is that the stereo image seems to have too much stuff coming from the speakers, and not enough from in between. I
back to the original problem :)

while ML do disperse at 30degrees or so, they are still reasonably beamy, in that they disperse less than traditional cone drivers. i know that i get a much better image than my wife who sits a couple of feet to the left of center (guess who's in center :) )

so placement of the ML's is going to be really important, here are few things i've done in the past.

experiment with listening distance. move your head forward and back and listen for staging differences.

experiment with toe in. i recently adjusted my CLS a bit (only a few inches) and the soundstage went wild, both for 2 channel and surround media.

if you find that changing the listening distance fixed the center image, then toe-in can achieve the same result.

as mentioned by others, check the phasing - is one of your speakers out of phase with the other. we've all accidentally hooked up on speaker cable incorrectly and gotten bad imaging.


close your eyes when you are listening for a problem. it can really help to remove the sense that the brain trusts more. when i'm fine tuning balance, i shut my eyes point to the center image and then open my eyes. with my eyes open i tend to shift the center image to the left of actual center. with eyes closed, my ears set things up right.

in your case, use a mono recording, or other mono signal to check things. perhaps your preamp has a mono or mix-down mode. back in the days when LP was king, many pre-amps had a mono switch to help in cartridge alignment.

if you don't have a mono recording, try mixing the L+R with a Y-connector.

remember that good mono recordings won't have everything jammed into a small center image, but will have a wide image between the speakers. again, close your eyes and hear what is being presented.

the difference between a stereo recording and a good mono recording is rather like the difference between sitting 7th row center and way in the back of the auditorium.

hope that this helps.
 

kach22i

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zaphod said:
and yes, the LP had me more involved - or as today's business pundits would have it, more engaged
Cool synopsis, I was just given a bottle of "Kelly Revenge"
shiraz a red wine from south eastern Australia 2003, perhaps that would be better than snacks. :D I have not tried it yet, but the buddy that gave it to me knows his wine though.
 

zaphod

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kach22i said:
Cool synopsis, I was just given a bottle of "Kelly Revenge"
shiraz a red wine from south eastern Australia 2003, perhaps that would be better than snacks. :D I have not tried it yet, but the buddy that gave it to me knows his wine though.
i just spent the weekend at a wine festival. lots of fun, but no shiraz as the region doesn't support the grapes. well, one winery is starting to try it, but no one else is doing the shiraz.

if you like the bottle, take a look at the products from wolf-blass. they produce some good shiraz and shiraz blends.
 

MarkNewbie

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zaphod said:
i just spent the weekend at a wine festival. lots of fun, but no shiraz as the region doesn't support the grapes. well, one winery is starting to try it, but no one else is doing the shiraz.

if you like the bottle, take a look at the products from wolf-blass. they produce some good shiraz and shiraz blends.
Wolf Blass is excellent!!! :D I really like their Shiraz(76%) / Cabernet(24%) blend. Another good one from that region is The Reserve [yellow tail] by Casella Estate. :cool:

I have no doubt that this is really helping "beanbag" with his problem...LOL
 

Robin

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Shiraz... can help beanbag...

Hey guys,

IMHO, It is my contention that, beanbag should try, "Wolf-Blass", Shiraz, to help find the ansewer, along with the Dave Brubeck Quartet - "Take Five", as well as, some ML toe-in tweaking. It is possible, for all of these elements could converge simultaniously, in a very positive way, to assist, beanbag, to solve his imaging problem. I say, give it a try beanbag... :)

By-the-way, beanbag, Welcome to the ML Club... :D It is good to have you here.

Cheers

-Robin
 

C.A.P

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never hurts to use acustical juice to put things into perspective :D
 

gstring

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C.A.P said:
once in a while I get a goofy stereo picture, almost like the insturments are to seperated or it feels I am listining to moniters in a studio, I came to the conclusion that there are alot of poorly mixed cd,s
This could not be more true! It's really a shame, especially when companies re-release a title that acutally degrades the original in very undesirable ways. Most would be surprised how well a 2 mike stereo mix of a live session can sound...absoultely engaging.
 
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