Discussion About the Differences Between Different Panel Sizes

[Big Dog RJ]

Getting back to the OP's topic: differences between panel sizes; yes there are several areas of improvement when it comes to larger stat surface area.
The three main elements that I've experienced in larger stats are:
1. Soundstage expands both in horizontal and vertical planes. Adds more depth, hence also requires more distance from walls.

2. Transparency is greater, enhancing inner- detail and finer subtle shadings on natural acoustic music. Every minute detail is captured.

3. Resolution is vastly improved along with scale and dynamics in mids and highs, including LF presentation with agility.

With regards to the Neoliths, they have the greatest surface area in terms of stat panels dedicated to mids & highs. However, although the Neoliths have separate bass drivers dedicated to LF reproduction, the stat panels still handle most of the upper to mid bass frequency. It's only the very low notes that get captured by the dual bass drivers, and these can also be adjusted to user requirements and room parameters.

The Neoliths are quite similar to the Statements Evo-II's, where they require a very large room. I did find though on certain occasions the Neoliths to be more coherent. Perhaps due to more stat panel area on the mids and highs alone, and probably the height.
I can't be 100% sure though, due to various other parameters, such as amplifiers, ancillary gear and cables... but I found only very slight variances between the two systems.

Overall, the Neoliths are definitely a force to reckon with and it comes fully assembled, which was one of ML"s goals. Also, it fits through an average size door! Whereas the Statements are a whole different dimension! It takes about 4 people to install and some heavy lifting is required, apart from a full day to set up. So it's not a straight forward set up, it takes quite a while to get it right.

Once the Statements are fully set up and operational, oh boy! Get ready for one heck of a ride! Such systems also require serious amplification! So things get very expensive.

Cheers to stats! You just gotta love em!
RJ

 

[amey01]

Ok, sounds like you're still doubting that CLX's can reproduce LF detail... or bass for that matter.

Prove me wrong in June

I really didn't know that a speaker is only judged by bass...

It is not. But for $50k, I wouldn't expect they are lacking in any area - bass or otherwise.

That said - the CLX was a known quantity in that regard - so the only thing I question is how much extension is the double-panel actually capable of over a regular ES panel, and whether it is worth the effort in terms of ROI.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Prove me wrong in June



It is not. But for $50k, I wouldn't expect they are lacking in any area - bass or otherwise.

That said - the CLX was a known quantity in that regard - so the only thing I question is how much extension is the double-panel actually capable of over a regular ES panel, and whether it is worth the effort in terms of ROI.

It's not necessary to prove anything mate. I'm not entertaining anyone to prove anything! Wilson's Chronosonic priced at over 600grand have plenty of bass. Yet people would install not one but two Thor subs priced at 100grand each! Oh! The Wilson's are bass less... not much ROI there...
LF "detail" is what I'm after, and most of all what's on the recording. Bass is defined on so many aspects not just thump. Not sure where you heard them, wherever it was sounds like they were definitely not to upto par. Leave it at that mate and let's move on. This thread is not about CLX's bass. Let's try to help others who require sincere advice & suggestions based on our vast experiences...
Enjoy the music!
Best, RJ

 

[Robert D]

I'd love to have a pair of CLX in place of my Prodigies, and would use my single BF 210 with them. I find the balanced force 210 to blend very well and never sounds unnatural to me.

What I crave is the same bass you get at a concert when close to the stage. I was at one this Tuesday and I could feel the bass slim into my chest each time the drummer kicked his big drum. Even the bass guitar vibrated my torso! Nice sharp thumps. I get it now to some degree.

I've only heard the CLX at my local showroom, and I think they weren't properly set up.

 

[Robert D]

I wonder how often used Neoliths come on the market?

 

[Robert D]

They had a pair here for sale for $49,000.

https://reverb.com/item/40238143-ma...orstanding-speakers-ferrari-red-local-pick-up

 

[Big Dog RJ]

I'd love to have a pair of CLX in place of my Prodigies, and would use my single BF 210 with them. I find the balanced force 210 to blend very well and never sounds unnatural to me.

What I crave is the same bass you get at a concert when close to the stage. I was at one this Tuesday and I could feel the bass slim into my chest each time the drummer kicked his big drum. Even the bass guitar vibrated my torso! Nice sharp thumps. I get it now to some degree.

I've only heard the CLX at my local showroom, and I think they weren't properly set up.

Good one Rob, subs will always add that bit of extra LF heft if that's what you're after, as I said it's a personal preference.

Regarding baas hitting your chest during a live performance is what's referred to as "stage effect." It is this very stage effect that people are trying to recreate in their homes using domestic hifi... it's not possible and it's unnatural. No matter how expensive the gear is, maybe over a million bucks, there's simply no way you can ever recreate the live event. The physics and chain of sound reproduction are totally different, although hifi can get close to it but it will never replace it.

Oh not to worry, CLX's properly set up can certainly hit the chest and others areas... the dynamics are superb! They can compete with the big boys, YG Acoustics, Wilson's, Thiels, Infinity's, Rockport, Radho, Karma, Genesis etc., in terms of handling top dynamic peaks with ease. Whereas many other speakers can't handle such high levels, then tend to have cone break up and will distort.

Cheers, RJ

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Neoliths on sale... very very rare here, non-existent. Not a single item has been sold, at 160grand a pair, a very hard sell.

There was one system of Statements on sale, original owner went for Gryphon Pendragon's. I think he still has the Statements. Need to visit him up coast, not far from here.

Cheers, RJ

 

[Robert D]

Good one Rob, subs will always add that bit of extra LF heft if that's what you're after, as I said it's a personal preference.

Regarding baas hitting your chest during a live performance is what's referred to as "stage effect." It is this very stage effect that people are trying to recreate in their homes using domestic hifi... it's not possible and it's unnatural. No matter how expensive the gear is, maybe over a million bucks, there's simply no way you can ever recreate the live event. The physics and chain of sound reproduction are totally different, although hifi can get close to it but it will never replace it.

Oh not to worry, CLX's properly set up can certainly hit the chest and others areas... the dynamics are superb! They can compete with the big boys, YG Acoustics, Wilson's, Thiels, Infinity's, Rockport, Radho, Karma, Genesis etc., in terms of handling top dynamic peaks with ease. Whereas many other speakers can't handle such high levels, then tend to have cone break up and will distort.

Cheers, RJ

Anyone know how low frequency a rock band's bass drum goes? How about the lowest note on a bass guitar? As long as a speaker can recreate that well, then it would theoretically be good for me. The Martin Logan website says the CLX Art goes down to 56 Hz.

This page says the kick drum goes down to around 50 HZ, so thats just about covered. The 5 and 6 string Bass guitars go down to 31 Hz, so the speakers wouldnt be able to recreate that. To me thats why you would want the sub, to take over for those frequencies.

Bass Frequency Range | StudyBass

 

[amey01]

Anyone know how low frequency a rock band's bass drum goes? How about the lowest note on a bass guitar? As long as a speaker can recreate that well, then it would theoretically be good for me. The Martin Logan website says the CLX Art goes down to 56 Hz.

Lowest note on a piano (A1) is 27.5Hz. So not even acoustic classical music is covered. And we've already discussed pipe organ.

And in all this - we are purely talking fundamentals, not other harmonics.

But when you're missing what amounts to (more than!!) a whole octave (piano A2 is 55Hz) .........well, I'm not saying that the CLX is not awesome - but it has a limitation I would want to deal with.

I'm not sure why you would demand a system that can reproduce the n-th degree of detail, but on the other hand throws away an entire octave.

 

[Robert D]

Lowest note on a piano (A1) is 27.5Hz. So not even acoustic classical music is covered. And we've already discussed pipe organ.

And in all this - we are purely talking fundamentals, not other harmonics.

But when you're missing what amounts to (more than!!) a whole octave (piano A2 is 55Hz) .........well, I'm not saying that the CLX is not awesome - but it has a limitation I would want to deal with.

I'm not sure why you would demand a system that can reproduce the n-th degree of detail, but on the other hand throws away an entire octave.

Id be just fine using a sub with them. To me a good subwoofer is like an extension of the two front main speakers. I think it should only be a problem if you have very limited space in your room.

 

[amey01]

Id be just fine using a sub with them. To me a good subwoofer is like an extension of the two front main speakers. I think it should only be a problem if you have very limited space in your room.

I agree! I'd have no problem at all using a sub with them.

But I wouldn't consider the speaker unless I could also afford a couple of subs to do them justice. It is part of the cost of the speaker as I see it - just like the Statement had separate sub towers.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Anyone know how low frequency a rock band's bass drum goes? How about the lowest note on a bass guitar? As long as a speaker can recreate that well, then it would theoretically be good for me. The Martin Logan website says the CLX Art goes down to 56 Hz.

This page says the kick drum goes down to around 50 HZ, so thats just about covered. The 5 and 6 string Bass guitars go down to 31 Hz, so the speakers wouldnt be able to recreate that. To me thats why you would want the sub, to take over for those frequencies.

Bass Frequency Range | StudyBass

View attachment 22583

Oh! Those specs... yeah, sadly they're not even close! I'm not sure what it is but ML's specs on the CLX's are way off! I mean waaay off, it's not even funny. I've had a good 45min chat about this with one of their chief techs, and his reply "not sure either..." just to be conservative I guess. Why? Not sure either...

So, yes the LF does go way lower than stated on their specs sheet. We measured it, and got a reading around the range of 28Hz and with some material even lower. There are times where we've both played our systems, and "those people " who thought they can't do bass... were wondering if we've hidden subs behind the curtains or behind the couch. When I refer to we, I mean myself and my other very good friend who drives his CLX's with Pass Labs. However, like I said, the very low notes, and we're talking really low, I would reckon 25Hz and below wouldn't be reproduced in high definition but you cal still feel it though.

On high dynamic peaks, you get everything! Slam, power, tight well controlled LF and super fast! The bass has come and gone! Subs are still moving....trying to catch up. So, on really low notes, synthesised bass, pipe organ, deep boom boom & party type doof doof, no, the CLX's aren't designed for that. Better off using subs.

I've had Quads ESL 2905's and 2912's that were rated at 26Hz and 28Hz usable... then HF specs stating 20kHz, ha! Absolute joke! They can't produce even half of the LF & HF extension that CLX's are capable of, and again I was very surprised as to why ML specs it this way. So I'm really not sure what's going on there. You would need to ask Gale or some other senior chap who may oblige to answer.

That's why with my listening habits and music genres the bass and LF detail is more than plenty and the HF extension is so powerful that most speakers distort, and in some cases ribbon tweeters tend to break. The Maggie ribbon tweeter says 44kHz extension, yeah right! I've driven my last pair of MG20.1's with Manley Labs Ref350's, both the ribbons snapped playing an album by Bob James Fourplay Between the Sheets. There are superlative HF transient attacks that the ribbons just couldn't handle but the CLX's it's a walk in the park! Just effortless.

These are extremely different stats to anything out there that I've heard to date. One other being its very own, which are the Statements Evo-II's and these can handle large dynamic swings. What ML has redesigned is a completely radical approach and one that is very poorly speced and poorly promoted. It's as if ML doesn't want this particular type of stat to succeed or is meant only for the truth in sound type of customer... I really don't know. It won the speakers of the year awards for 2008/09 and all 11 judges were unanimous in their decision but I guess that's all ML were interested in.

One thing for sure is they've ceased production and given way for their new line of hybrids and I think this is the way forwards for the next gen.

If you do get a chance to experience these in their true glory, a lot of your misconceptions will be thrown out the window, as is the case with many who've visited my place and my mates place as well. On his system the LF heft, wallop and weight is even greater because of the Pass Labs being a Pure Class A SS bias. Mine are Class AB tube monoblocks, so the impact happens when I turn things up but I'm not after thunderous presentation, I prefer late night sessions with low to moderate settings.

So, specs really means nothing! There are far too many speakers I've owned with impressive specs, Paradigm, Thiel, Infinity's, Energy, Rogers, Sonus Faber, Dynaudio, Dali, Maggie's, Quads and so on, these CLX's surpass them in every way imaginable! They are really special and there's no other speaker I would rather own. At this stage... although I'm eyeing those fancy Alsyvox but the entry level model is 125grand upwards. I'll be thrown into the dog

Cheers, and a big WOOF!
RJ

 

[Robert D]

MartinLogan CLX Full-Range Electrostatic Loudspeaker - The Absolute Sound

 

[SomeGeoffGuy]

When I put a sub with my Aerius, they sounded ten times better. And that was just with an average sub (used Polk Audio). A top of the line Rel, JL Audio, or something similar would probably sound even better. I am not sure the measurements or the physics involved, I just know they sound a LOT better.

-Geoff

 

[Robert D]

How does the size of the CLX Art main panel, not the bass panel, compare to the panel size of the 15a?

Looks like it's 490 Sq inches vs 690. So the CLX is 200 Sq inches less.

 

[Brad225]

8.6" x 57"

 

[ttocs]

At 8.6" wide, the High Frequency Transducer is a little more total area than the Classic ESL 9 because the ESL 9 is shorter.

So the thing everyone seems to be in agreement about is the fact that with all the sound being produced by stats, it's simply glorious sounding! Just might benefit from some fill at the bottom end for those who feel the need.

And while some can argue that cone subwoofers are simply too slow to keep up with stats, something to keep in mind is that when there are many subs working in concert, a la' The Statement's 8 subwoofers, each individual sub is doing very little and dynamics greatly improve, as I've found with my arrangement.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes ttocs, that's a good point!

The LF reproduced is more than adequate on most material... if in certain cases the owner/ user wants more LF weight, by all means do so.

That's the point I'm trying to make, yet difficult for a few to understand... I just prefer purity and simplicity, that's all.
Hope that clears things.
Cheers, RJ

 

[SomeGeoffGuy]

And while some can argue that cone subwoofers are simply too slow to keep up with stats, something to keep in mind is that when there are many subs working in concert, a la' The Statement's 8 subwoofers, each individual sub is doing very little and dynamics greatly improve, as I've found with my arrangement.

Rel claims the "Fastest" subs out there - one of the reasons that they don't offer a lot of DSP for their gear. I have a couple of their home theater line, and they are amazing. I can only imagine how good their big dogs must sound.

-Geoff