Descent i Sub: Owner Feedback & Revel B15a Comp

[Norcal]

All,

I need to replace my Genesis 900 sub (15" servo) as the power supply went out and took out the amp & driver. I've demo'd 3 replacement subs at our house (in order of preference).
Martin Logan Descent i
Revel B15a (15" servo)
Velodyne DD15 (15" servo)

Three questions to the Martin Logan Club members.
1. Has anybody listended to both the Descent i & B15a and your observations?

2. What do the Descent i owners think of their sub after extended listening?

3. If you purchased the Descent i, how much did you pay (new or used)?


I was phenomenally impressed with the Martin Logan Descent i. It is the most musical of the subs and created a very special sound with the Sonus fabers that the Revel or Velodyne couldn't match. IMHO, servo subs are the way to go as the bass control can't be matched by non-servo's. None of the 3 subs I demo'd will turn the bass into mush but the Descent i's were almost magical.

The Sonus fabers are bookshelf speakers as there wasn't enough room for floorstanding speakers in the family room (19'x21'x9'). Their imaging & midrange are excellent as that is Sonus' claim to fame.

The Descent i setup is left up to the user more than with the other subs. I have the Stereophile Test CD and a Radio Shack SPL digital meter so I can accomplish most of what the Revel & Velodyne can do. The Revel has a 3-band parametric equalizer which is more adjustable to room conditions. A paramertric equalizer changes the center freq as well as the amplitude and sometimes the filter slope characteristics based on the equalizer.

Regards,
Fred Luna


EQUIPMENT
Sonus faber Concertos (front & rear speakers)
Sonus faber Solo (center speaker)
Parasound AVC-2500 A/V controller w/ HD component video & 5.1 analog audio bypass upgrades
Parasound HCA-2205A 5-ch amp

Apogee Centaur Major (zone2 speakers)
Linn LK100 (zone2 2-ch amp)
Linn Kairn preamp (currently boxed)

Marantz DV9600 Universal Player (DVD-V, DVD-A & SACD)
Nakamichi CD Player1 (used as a transport only)
Pioneer CLD-702 laserdisc pplayer
Kenwood KD-500 tt, Infinity Black Widow tone-arm, Roksan Corus cartridge
Tivo SeriesIII HD Digital Media Recorder
Comcast HD Cable Box
Panasonic CT-34WX50 HDTV (34" CRT: an oldie but the picture is better than any plasma I've seen till the Pioneer Elite PRO-FHD1 Plasma 50" monitor; no plasma I've seen could match it for producing blacks till the Pioneer)

 

[roberto]

All,

I need to replace my Genesis 900 sub (15" servo) as the power supply went out and took out the amp & driver. I've demo'd 3 replacement subs at our house (in order of preference).
Martin Logan Descent i
Revel B15a (15" servo)
Velodyne DD15 (15" servo)

Three questions to the Martin Logan Club members.
1. Has anybody listended to both the Descent i & B15a and your observations?

2. What do the Descent i owners think of their sub after extended listening?

3. If you purchased the Descent i, how much did you pay (new or used)?


I was phenomenally impressed with the Martin Logan Descent i. It is the most musical of the subs and created a very special sound with the Sonus fabers that the Revel or Velodyne couldn't match. IMHO, servo subs are the way to go as the bass control can't be matched by non-servo's. None of the 3 subs I demo'd will turn the bass into mush but the Descent i's were almost magical.

The Sonus fabers are bookshelf speakers as there wasn't enough room for floorstanding speakers in the family room (19'x21'x9'). Their imaging & midrange are excellent as that is Sonus' claim to fame.

The Descent i setup is left up to the user more than with the other subs. I have the Stereophile Test CD and a Radio Shack SPL digital meter so I can accomplish most of what the Revel & Velodyne can do. The Revel has a 3-band parametric equalizer which is more adjustable to room conditions. A paramertric equalizer changes the center freq as well as the amplitude and sometimes the filter slope characteristics based on the equalizer.

Regards,
Fred Luna


EQUIPMENT
Sonus faber Concertos (front & rear speakers)
Sonus faber Solo (center speaker)
Parasound AVC-2500 A/V controller w/ HD component video & 5.1 analog audio bypass upgrades
Parasound HCA-2205A 5-ch amp

Apogee Centaur Major (zone2 speakers)
Linn LK100 (zone2 2-ch amp)
Linn Kairn preamp (currently boxed)

Marantz DV9600 Universal Player (DVD-V, DVD-A & SACD)
Nakamichi CD Player1 (used as a transport only)
Pioneer CLD-702 laserdisc pplayer
Kenwood KD-500 tt, Infinity Black Widow tone-arm, Roksan Corus cartridge
Tivo SeriesIII HD Digital Media Recorder
Comcast HD Cable Box
Panasonic CT-34WX50 HDTV (34" CRT: an oldie but the picture is better than any plasma I've seen till the Pioneer Elite PRO-FHD1 Plasma 50" monitor; no plasma I've seen could match it for producing blacks till the Pioneer)

Hola Fred...have you tried the coin test on the subs?...the only winner with this test is the Descend i. The array of the three drivers at 120º position, makes that you don´t have any cabinet resonance. Also for music, is like there is no sub around, only when it is needed, right?...also with the 25Hz and 50Hz controls, you can adjust the low freq. to the right amount of bass for the room, same as the Summits. Happy listening,
Roberto.

 

[Norcal]

Allo Roberto,

I was hoping for something a little bit more quantitative than a coin toss! I gather you like the Descent i as well. Do you own one?

It shouldn't be too hard to calibrate the Descent i with the Stereophile Test CD and the SPL meter. The sales guy for the Revel B15a came to the house and did a calibration. Don't think it was pure flattery but he commented the room was the flattest he had measured with no major standing wave/frequency issues. The Revel was flat to 20Hz in the room but it wasn't close to the Descent i wrt music.

Time to pony up some $$ unless I can find one used. However, the ML warranty is not transferable and I had one sub poop out on me (though it took 6 yrs). The ML warranty is only 3 yrs for subs.

Caio,
Fred

 

[fallencr]

Fred,

Surely what Roberto was talkin' about is the coin TEST, by which you place a coin on top of the sub and watch it vibrate, won't see much of it with the Descent.

 

[attyonline]

You demoed all three subs and liked the Descent best so whats to question? If someone else likes the Velo or Revel better that does not affect your impression or preference. Only thing other views can tell you is matters of reliablity or system interaction quirks. You were so impressed with the Descent that I don't see how you could then decide to buy one of the other candidates.

 

[Norcal]

Hi Roberto & Fallencr,

Oops, thanks for the clarification. I didn't do a coin test but I did notice significantly reduced vibration in the Descent i. I didn't attribute this to the Tri-Linear/Balanced Force design as I thought that was just mktg hype. With your responses and applying (or trying at least) my engineering knowledge, it makes a lot of sense as reduced mechanical vibration & cabinet resonances should improve the sound. The efficiency of the electrical-to-mechanical/driver transfer will improve as less energy is transmitted to the enclosure. No wonder the Sunfire subs sound like s**t as they dance across a hardwood floor! My apologies to those who own Sunfire subs....

Many thanks for the clarification. Learned something new today!


Hi Attyonline,

I will be purchasing the Descent i. I just wanted to see if other folks had similar observations and to get a long-term assessment of the sub, including reliability.


Cheers,
Fred

 

[roberto]

Hi Roberto & Fallencr,

Oops, thanks for the clarification. I didn't do a coin test but I did notice significantly reduced vibration in the Descent i. I didn't attribute this to the Tri-Linear/Balanced Force design as I thought that was just mktg hype. With your responses and applying (or trying at least) my engineering knowledge, it makes a lot of sense as reduced mechanical vibration & cabinet resonances should improve the sound. The efficiency of the electrical-to-mechanical/driver transfer will improve as less energy is transmitted to the enclosure. No wonder the Sunfire subs sound like s**t as they dance across a hardwood floor! My apologies to those who own Sunfire subs....

Many thanks for the clarification. Learned something new today!


Hi Attyonline,

I will be purchasing the Descent i. I just wanted to see if other folks had similar observations and to get a long-term assessment of the sub, including reliability.


Cheers,
Fred

Hola Fred... no problem. There is another test...just fill a glass of water and put it on top of the Descent i. Don´t try to do this with an ordinary subwoofer, you will get the water everywhere. Yes, the most important thing in that design is a non resonant cabinet. You will have the best bass response and the right amonut of bass for each musical note. The bass is very important and usually in most rooms, the sub is too loud for my liking. How do you know the right amount of bass?...With the aid of the recording by Pepe Romero in "Flamenco" Album, the song no. 2 has a dancer in a very big wooden stage. Pepe is playing flamenco guitar at the half left front of the stage...the dancer is tapping very strong the wooden floor, and dances all over, from left to right and bottom. If the sub is too loud, you will get an odd sound from the wooden stage, then adjusting the volume knob to the right timbre and position of the dancer at the stage. The guitar remains there, and no ping pong notes from the guitar...it is one of those good philps live recordings. Yes, not all recordings have the same loudness of bass, but with this recording, usually makes most recordings to sound great with tons of stage with 3 dimensional sound. The wrong resonances, even having a deep bass, does not means that it is musical...you have to listen the musical instruments live, and try to emulate that quantity of bass energy in your room. Also, quality bass is tons better than quantity bass. Having three 300 Watts power amp each woofer, it is one of the most cleanest subs on the market place today, no matter the cost. You can´t go wrong with it. I usually say " trust your ears " and get the one that you liked most, regardless of specs...happy listening,
Roberto.

 

[tonyc]

Fred, I have no experience with the Descenti. I have owned a Descent for several years. It sounds great, matches well with the rest of the system and has worked flawlessly. My wife keeps porceline figurines on it and they never move, even when watching movies! I would buy a Descenti if I came to need another sub.

 

[Norcal]

Hi Roberto,

Thank you very much for the info. I'll see if I can find the Pepe Romero album and try your demo. I'll let you know.

Still kept my TT though the Parasound does an audio sin by converting analog stereo inputs to digital and then reproessing them back to analog (also did the same for the 5.1 inputs w/o the 5.1 analog bypass upgrade which I recently had done). Resulted in the biggest drawback to the AVC2500, a design trade-off & decision that was wrong-they took the easiest design path. A serious designer who loved audio would have taken the add'l steps to do it right. So much for my soapbox...


Hi TonyC,

Thank you for your Descent response and your response on the universal player w/ "analog" bass mgmt. Glad to hear that you like the Descent enough to purchase another one, the ultimate indicator!


I'll be buying the Descent i in the 1-2 wks! Time to join the ML devotees...


Cheers,
Fred