A Sincere From My Heart Question Regarding the Future of ML ESL

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My Prodigies were 20 years old when I got new panels.
That is very encouraging news indeed; I was thinking more in terms of the powered woofers; surrounds wither; admittedly the amp is modular by design so if it fails it can be replaced “in the field.” I just read a review of the Magico A5 & the writer said it is the only loudspeaker with woofers & tweeters that fooled him into believing he was listening to electrostatics; high praise indeed. Alas the con is they are demanding of the highest quality amplification so it would mean to quote my wife “starting all over again.” Absent a sudden windfall something we don’t want to do. Parenthetically what a joke Quads on their website are bragging we now offer a 3 year warranty! Big deal ML has always been 5 years & Maggie only 1 year on the ribbon tweeter so kudos to ML.
 
I think part of it is where can they go anymore? The 8 year design fixed by a long shot what the previous design lacked.

Also not a fan of the Neolith is a solution looking for a problem as far as I’m concerned. Which brings us back to the CLX. I was told the guy the did the wood retired probably did so what’s the next excuse? I also reminded them once the masterpiece series came out they totally stopped advertising or promotion at shows for the CLX. So da the sales fell. They also had an opportunity to package with the 212 subs but never thought of that either!! I think and it breaks my heart a bit they just don’t have the passion for the audiophile it’s all about the masses.
I also reminded them once the masterpiece series came out they totally stopped advertising or promotion at shows for the CLX. So da the sales fell. - Exactly!

Here is an idea; as good as the seamless transition is now between panel & woofers it would be amazing if they came out with an iteration that has one panel only as do the Soundlabs and Quads.

Yes we enjoy the powered bass and had an audio engineer to our house using the ARC for very linear in room response.

Nevertheless there is no crossover like no crossover. Admittedly memory is fickle but the CLSIIZ were my first love & still my ideal because no crossover!

It is a bit discouraging to be somewhat cast in the role of curmudgeon for pointing out not unreasonable criticisms of a beloved company.
 
Mmm... that's definitely a good question and something to ponder...
It would be quite bad or shall I say sad to learn that ML may only consider its box design types as they venture into the next few decades. Yes, ESL's aren't for everyone nor can they work optimally in every type of room. It would make more business sense to promote what's in current demand but they should still offer the stats to the audiophile category.

As far as I'm aware, their ESL sales are going ok... such that most dealers who I've come across are nearly sold out, which means orders for hybrid stats are available and production is ticking. It will always be very Labor intensive process to make stats, there's no denying that. I truly hope ML will continue with their stats, after all they're truly SOTA! Very close to the truth in sound.

If ML stats fold up then I guess there's Alsyvox or Clarisys to consider. They're just damn expensive but sounds fabulous!
Until such time, enjoy those fine tunes!
Cheers, RJ
 
I think what we're seeing isn't Martin Logan abandoning their market and existing customers, but rather one that is carefully managing their finances through an unprecedented pandemic and related, ongoing economic fallout. The companies that are fortunate to make it through to the other side of our current economic uncertainties should enjoy a welcome business opportunity, but they have to stay in business first, to get to that threshold.

Frankly I think it's entirely possible they're doing a prudent job of managing the company.
Completely agree; they are doing a good job. 10 ESL models are the most they've ever had in the lineup, and the entry-level is reasonably priced and gets many new owners hooked on the tech.

I think spending on print adverts is a waste of money (for ESL), and best use those funds to go to shows and get people to hear the difference in person.

The dynamic speaker line is fine, especially in the refreshed iteration. But they are priced too high IMHO, but if the market will bear it, then good for them.

As for the future of ESL, well, the current line-up has very few downsides, but they could expand their market if they only implemented my Monoray concept, as the biggest challenge to ESL ownership is room and acoustics integration.

The other thing I'd like to see as an option is to support fully active crossovers on the ESL line.
 
Hello! I read all of the posts in this thread with great interest. As a long time audiophile dating back to 1980, I have a few perspectives regarding the ESL line and high end companies in general. In our hobby and passion, it is true that high end companies do come and go. I have some old Stereophile magazines from the 1980's and it's interesting to read some of the reviews/ads of products of companies that are no longer in existence. Neither are any dealer/manufacturer support of those products, either. What is the Hyman Roth quote from one of the Godfather movies? It was something like "This is the business we have chosen.")) It is a sad reality of our "business" as audiophiles that we take the risk that a great product and/or company that we have chosen may go out of business. As I am sitting hereI am looking at a pair of Apogee Duetta II's (bought new in 1987, re-ribboned aftermarket in 2008) but Apogee folded in the 1990's. The Duetta II's are still working fine. Am also looking at a Velodyne DD-12 subwoofer (with a blown amplifier, twice replaced, and no factory support anymore), a pair of Sanders Magtech monoblock amplifiers (great, but will this company always be around after Roger Sanders, a truly nice guy?). Perhaps Magtech owners in the future can look to Coda Technologies for support. I own both Martin Logan Summit-X's, bought new in 2017 at a real discount as the new models were coming, and the 15A's, bought new in 2019 when they were on sale for $18,500. A new pair is almost $30,000 now. Both the Summit X's and the 15A's sound superb, and so I don't have regrets as to buying decisions. Is ML fading out as a company, or going to cease making ESL speakers? I personally don't know but just plan to enjoy the music.
 
I can see both sides of this argument. Klipsch, JBL, Marantz, etc, have used their names to sell lesser quality equipment. It keeps the lights on and makes the investors happy. But they are still making high end offerings.

GM and it's Corvette are a good example. I don't remember seeing a single commercial for a Corvette. People who are going to buy one know what they are and have the resources to buy them and GM is going to continue to make them for that market. ML is a very well known brand in the audiophile world, more so than a lot of the brands in your German review list above. I expect they will continue to make ESL as long as they are profitable. And the high-end stuff adds a cache to the brand.
 
I can see both sides of this argument. Klipsch, JBL, Marantz, etc, have used their names to sell lesser quality equipment. It keeps the lights on and makes the investors happy. But they are still making high end offerings.

GM and it's Corvette are a good example. I don't remember seeing a single commercial for a Corvette. People who are going to buy one know what they are and have the resources to buy them and GM is going to continue to make them for that market. ML is a very well known brand in the audiophile world, more so than a lot of the brands in your German review list above. I expect they will continue to make ESL as long as they are profitable. And the high-end stuff adds a cache to the brand.
Yes, the higher end equipment actually helps sell the bread and butter stuff.
 
Just a technical remark - 15A vs Summit is not apples to apples in terms of performance. More like 13A would be correct comparison.

do not disagree with the rest though. Whole hifi industry has gone nuts.
Actually, the 13a is still not apples to apples. Larger panel (which makes a big difference), bigger amp, better technology on the crossover and woofer cabinet, ARC ready. The Summit X was selling for $15,000 when discontinued. I believe the 13a started at $17,000? So with worldwide inflation and supply chain issues, an acceptable increase.
 
It's hard to single out Martin Logan for high prices when prices on everything have gone through the roof. I bought my new Aragon 2 channel amp about 7 years ago for $4200. That same model now sells for $14,000. So I don't think Martin Logan's prices are abnormally inflated for audiophile quality equipment. IMO the prices on much of the gear now is ridiculous though, and it's one reason I bought my new sub woofer from a small company here in Ohio. Great price and performance can still be had if you shop around.
 
Not too surprising, I suppose. When a high end independent company gets bought out by a big conglomerate/investment firm, the bottom line becomes the only consideration. First, prices rise well beyond what the product is worth, leveraging the brand name. Then, when sales/profits fall, the brand name is leveraged to sell the low end gear with the high end falling away / becoming an afterthought. This seems to be the trajectory we have witnessed with ML since they got bought out. Wouldn’t surprise me at all at this point if they discontinued the electrostatic lines.

I bought my Summits in 2006. Top of the line. They were $10,000 for the pair retail. Now, the equivalent speaker is the Expression 15A. Which retails for $29,000 a pair! According to the BLS CPI inflation calculator, $10,000 in 2006 dollars should be about $15,000 in today’s dollars. So they’ve literally doubled their price on the top of the line (ignoring Neolith) electrostatic speaker, while adding very little additional performance. Speaking of the Neolith, it started at $89,000 a few years ago, if I remember correctly. It now lists at $120,000! Up by a third.

I honestly think they’ve priced themselves out of the market. ML is no longer high end, in my opinion. They are all about marketing, over-charging, mass production, and leveraging a once-iconic brand name to sell lower quality mass-produced products. Not that they don’t still make some quality electrostatic speakers. But they charge way more than they’re worth and that segment is probably becoming a smaller and smaller portion of their overall sales. It will surely disappear in a few years.
Rich, while I agree with most of your post I will say the Summit's don't begin to compare with the 15a's, more in line with the 13a's. Even then the expression line overall has surpassed what the Spire, Montis and Summit did.
 
Mmm... that's definitely a good question and something to ponder...
It would be quite bad or shall I say sad to learn that ML may only consider its box design types as they venture into the next few decades. Yes, ESL's aren't for everyone nor can they work optimally in every type of room. It would make more business sense to promote what's in current demand but they should still offer the stats to the audiophile category.

As far as I'm aware, their ESL sales are going ok... such that most dealers who I've come across are nearly sold out, which means orders for hybrid stats are available and production is ticking. It will always be very Labor intensive process to make stats, there's no denying that. I truly hope ML will continue with their stats, after all they're truly SOTA! Very close to the truth in sound.

If ML stats fold up then I guess there's Alsyvox or Clarisys to consider. They're just damn expensive but sounds fabulous!
Until such time, enjoy those fine tunes!
Cheers, RJ
My feelings exactly; have you ever auditioned Soundlab products? FWIW I have been reading many outstanding reviews of the Magico A5 with one reviewer saying it is the only loudspeaker with woofers & tweeter that made him believe he was listening to electrostats. German Stereoplay concurs they punch way above their weight outperforming speakers 3x the price including Magico’s other offerings. The retail here is $24,800 https://www.connect.de/filedownload...lt-8-Seiten-stereoplay-2023-06_lowres_pdf.pdf
 
My feelings exactly; have you ever auditioned Soundlab products? FWIW I have been reading many outstanding reviews of the Magico A5 with one reviewer saying it is the only loudspeaker with woofers & tweeter that made him believe he was listening to electrostats. German Stereoplay concurs they punch way above their weight outperforming speakers 3x the price including Magico’s other offerings. The retail here is $24,800 https://www.connect.de/filedownload...lt-8-Seiten-stereoplay-2023-06_lowres_pdf.pdf
I finally got to listen to a Sound Lab product, the 545's. They were very good, more substantial across the soundstage than my 13a's. Of course, they were in a dedicated room, with way more distance from the front wall than I can ever dream of. But man were they large! I really couldn't get past their dimensions. I had a bit of WAF. You'd need a really large room for the 7's or 9's, just to try to not be always aware of the massive things in front of you.
 
That is amazing; according their website the first number means how tall it is so 545 means 5 feet tall; the 545 in the Audiophile retails for 15K
Of course I stayed aways because they are fundamentally a one man show; when Dr. West passes who will take over the company? Not being morbid; I am 74 and have witnessed too many instance where when the head of a company passed the company failed. Jim Thiel, James Bongiorno, too many to list unfortunately. Our 13A are 61.5 inches tall so the same 5 feet tall; our room is 22 x 22. Memory is fickle but the CLS IIZ were my favorites.
CLS IIz Free of crossover phase anomalies and multi-driver distortions, the CLS IIz is capable of revealing the subtle holographic magic within the music that transforms the experience from listening to "being there". Free of crossover phase anomalies; why? NO CROSSOVER!
1684900395160.png
 
That is amazing; according their website the first number means how tall it is so 545 means 5 feet tall; the 545 in the Audiophile retails for 15K
Of course I stayed aways because they are fundamentally a one man show; when Dr. West passes who will take over the company? Not being morbid; I am 74 and have witnessed too many instance where when the head of a company passed the company failed. Jim Thiel, James Bongiorno, too many to list unfortunately. Our 13A are 61.5 inches tall so the same 5 feet tall; our room is 22 x 22. Memory is fickle but the CLS IIZ were my favorites.
CLS IIz Free of crossover phase anomalies and multi-driver distortions, the CLS IIz is capable of revealing the subtle holographic magic within the music that transforms the experience from listening to "being there". Free of crossover phase anomalies; why? NO CROSSOVER! View attachment 24227
It's the width that got me. The 545's are 25" wide, so over 4' of visual speaker. The CLS IIZ's were a bit over 4'. The 13a's are 13" wide. Noticeable, but not overwhelming. I would have liked to have had the 15a's, if cost weren't a problem, plus the Wife was also dubious about the size of the speaker.

The745's are almost 8' combined width. Even in your large room, with 8' between them, you would only have 3' to the side walls. They would definitely be the main focus of the room.
 
I was thinking of the 545 only; I posted this on Twitter in reply to ML celebrating Joe Vojtko still being there:

The Masterpiece Series was released in 2016; 7 years ago! Is that as far as you can go with electrostatic design? Here is an idea; as good as the seamless transition is now between panel & woofers it would be amazing if you came out with an iteration that has one panel only as do the Soundlabs and Quads. Yes we enjoy the powered bass of our 13A and had an audio engineer to our house using the ARC for very linear in room response. Nevertheless there is no crossover like no crossover. Admittedly memory is fickle but the CLSIIZ were my first love & still my ideal because there is no crossover like no crossover! Remember this? "Free of crossover phase anomalies" Classic Full-Range Purity In many ways the heart and soul of MartinLogan. The CLS IIz projects musical passages as faithfully as a prism disperses the colors of the spectrum. The industry standard for resolving detail, the CLS IIz's curvilinear diaphragm reproduces the entire musical range. Free of crossover phase anomalies and multi-driver distortions, the CLS IIz is capable of revealing the subtle holographic magic within the music that transforms the experience from listening to "being there".

Free of crossover phase anomalies; why? NO CROSSOVER!

In my mind I was hoping for the same dimension height and width of the 13A but all 1 panel; here the left side is all bass and the right side everything else.

In my fantasy half the width and no curve (yes it would be directional)
1684905220890.png


Sanders also uses a powered conventional bass driver :( Love Is Always Better the Second Time Around: The Sanders Sound Systems 10e Hybrid Electrostatic Speaker
 
Just a thought - Audio Research was ever-present in all the mags. Did not help that much in the end.

ESL is and will be niche product and company will probably sell to its existing customer base 90%. Said that - I think 7-8 years is a good time to refresh the Masterpiece series, with 16A, 13Active with full range Room Correction or smth similar.
 
Agreed, time for a refresh; apropos Audio Research going into receivership I believe this IS the reason; the Cliff Notes version? Greed

Audio Autopsy Reference 750 Flagship

 
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FWIW, I own a pair of Montis ESLs, which were rendered "older models" when the current line of ML ESLs (including your 13s) was introduced. ML also moved their operating headquarters from the US to Canada. And the dealer who sold them to me dropped the product line.

I suppose, early on, I felt a bit worried that my investment had taken a hit, and I had a modest fear of abandonment. But the fact is, that isn't what happened. My Montis, now ten years old, continue to perform well, they do the job they were intended to do, and when I've run into issues, ML Support has solved the problems effectively and inexpensively. Beyond this, I believe ML continues to attract a healthy following of interested audiophiles. In one group of Hi Fi enthusiasts to which I belong, there are several happy and enthusiastic ML ESL owners, and their pride of ownership is immediately evident based on what they have to say about their listening experiences.

The fact is, an ESL, even a ML ESL, isn't for everyone. Some don't like the size or the looks or the way they sit out in the room. The interaction of this bipolar radiator with the room is particularly complex and not everyone has the patience to deal with this. The ESL is a generally capacitive load from midrange to treble and needs better than the average mill of amplifier and source to bring out the best in it. Despite this, however, there still are a healthy number of individuals who are pleased with the results. The internet also makes the individual owner's experience ever more broadly shared with others, which naturally serves as a form of advertisement.

I'd also like to point out that ML ESLs actually do employ crossovers, so saying "there's no crossover" isn't strictly correct. The bass unit is a separate source from the panel, and the crossover between the two is not only necessary but extremely complex. Sure, there's no crossover from mid range to treble, and that's indeed an asset, but the benefit of this smooth transition can easily be blown by not properly dealing with the impact of the back sound radiation relative to the front and the beaminess of a (nearly) planar radiator. It is also important to realize the panel is driven through a transformer which, of necessity, contributes it's own coloration characteristics.

Beyond this, there are in fact non ESL speakers with multiple drivers whose crossover characteristics effectively disappear, so crossovers, while potentially troublesome, aren't always. I own two sets of them: The Dynaudio Contour S1.4 LE and the Dynaudio Heritage Special. The crossovers, both low pass and high pass, have slopes of 6 dB per octave which inherently have this perfect phase blending property. Now, admittedly, it's hard to find any old loudspeaker with tweeters that will tolerate a high pass cutoff of 6 dB / octave - Normally, this means early death to the tweeter when strong upper midrange signals are encountered that melt its voicecoil. The Dynaudio tweeters in the aforementioned are designed capable of withstanding high out-of-band power which makes this mode of crossover operation possible. What do they sound like? Like they have no crossovers, which is (in part) why I bought them and enjoy them so much.

Just my two cents.
 
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