The DON / redux

[Kevin]

For the uninformed... You need to understand that there is a local anarchist group in Berkeley that uses any opportunity to come out and "play." This all started as a peaceful student protest and then a group of about 150 masked anarchists swarmed in and started the riot. These aren't your standard liberal college students causing this violence. They are an extreme, isolated group of violent youth that are taking advantage of the situation to get their kicks. I don't think you will find too many liberals defending their actions.

When did I say they were students doing the rioting? Students of Berkeley probably didn't help things by having student groups calling for the shutdown of the event prior to it occurring. But these "anarchists" seem to me to be liberal. Why do they only seem to show up at liberal protests? I never saw them running through Tea Party protests. I don't see them causing disturbances when provocative liberal speakers like Bill Maher come to speak at Berkeley.

Now a speaker has been shutdown at NYU. So much for free speech and liberal tolerance for the views of others.

 

[Kevin]

217 out of millions - sorry textbook conflating there.

I will repeat a previous post for effect:

liberals are all violent troublemakers therefore their causes are invalid.
conservatives are all racist bigots therefore their causes are invalid.

That's 217 that were arrested, I seriously doubt that they even caught a portion of those setting fire to various objects, vandalizing buildings, or throwing stones at the police.

Again for effect: Had this been conservatives protesting Hillary and doing all of this, that 217 would have made the front pages, not buried somewhere within the pages. I don't believe that the actions of these idiots is a mark on the majority of democrats or their message. What I do believe is that our media has a serious problem with double standards. They couldn't resist asking conservative politicians to condemn Trump for the few incidents that occurred at his rallies. So why are they not asking democratic leaders about the riots that are continuously occurring here?

 

[Scumurculum]

That's 217 that were arrested, I seriously doubt that they even caught a portion of those setting fire to various objects, vandalizing buildings, or throwing stones at the police.

Again for effect: Had this been conservatives protesting Hillary and doing all of this, that 217 would have made the front pages, not buried somewhere within the pages. I don't believe that the actions of these idiots is a mark on the majority of democrats or their message. What I do believe is that our media has a serious problem with double standards. They couldn't resist asking conservative politicians to condemn Trump for the few incidents that occurred at his rallies. So why are they not asking democratic leaders about the riots that are continuously occurring here?

Both sides are treated equally fairly and poorly by the media

Fox news...helloooooo

 

[amey01]

The "Australian" refugees are the victim of some nasty and shameful Australian politics.

They are called illegal immigrants, by certain sections of Australian politics, even though under international law they are not.

Not true at all. There is a big difference between genuine refugees and people trying to claim that status to "game" our good will and kind-heartedness.

They're not "victims" - they put themselves in this situation. They paid people-smugglers tens of thousands of dollars to bring them here. They could have purchased a first-class ticket on a QANTAS A380 for less. The UN does not discriminate on how you get to a country of refuge - you can arrive by leaky boat or on a QANTAS A380 (reclining in seat 1A) with zero net effect on your status. Why did they not do take the first-class flight (for a lot less money then)? Because you can't do that if you don't have proper documents, can you? You can't board a plane if your intention is to thow your documentation overboard, can you? Because they had something to hide. THEY WERE ILLEGAL!. They were NOT genuine refugees at all.

Most Australians are compassionate enough to accept genuine refugees. Most also - are not prepared to be taken advantage of.

This delination is important - as this is what causes the controversey.

Australia had a big problem with the previous government - allowing all and sundry to enter Australia (so long as they claimed to be a refugee. )

That of course created a snowball effect........ "Just say you're a "refugee" and you'll get in".......haha. Throw your documentation overboard and they'll never know.....double-haha.

That problem has now been stopped by tough border control, but there remains a stand-out of people who refuse to budge. Thankfully - it is not an ongoing problem for us........but the "old" problem needs to be dealt with. That was the subject of this deal, which involved a simlar swap of people with the same predicament in the US. Therefore, benefit to both countries.

Of course, Australia continues to accept refugees - but through the official channels - not people who pay 10 times the price of a FIRST CLASS QANTAS A380 ticket to people smugglers so as to "game" the system.

This - it must be noted - is now BI-PARTISAN Australian policy.

Agree with Scumurculum's previous comment though - you treat your allies with respect - even when there are disagreements.

 

[Kevin]

Both sides are treated equally fairly and poorly by the media

Fox news...helloooooo

Talk about conflating, you choose the one example that is out there for a conservative 'news' source. I wouldn't even mention MSNBC as a source of news, for the most part they are liberal commentators, most of their hosts openly admit their bias, don't parade as professional journalist, and I am fine with that.

 

[Rich]

When did I say they were students doing the rioting? Students of Berkeley probably didn't help things by having student groups calling for the shutdown of the event prior to it occurring. But these "anarchists" seem to me to be liberal. Why do they only seem to show up at liberal protests? I never saw them running through Tea Party protests. I don't see them causing disturbances when provocative liberal speakers like Bill Maher come to speak at Berkeley.

Now a speaker has been shutdown at NYU. So much for free speech and liberal tolerance for the views of others.

Yes, they are "liberals" ... In the same sense that Neo Nazis or Westboro Baptist Church are conservatives. They are an extreme fringe group that shares little with the mainstream thought. Your trying to conflate this with a "liberal" protest out of control is about the same as saying Westboro's picketing of Soldier's funerals represents all conservative Christians.

 

[Kevin]

Yes, they are "liberals" ... In the same sense that Neo Nazis or Westboro Baptist Church are conservatives. They are an extreme fringe group that shares little with the mainstream thought. Your trying to conflate this with a "liberal" protest out of control is about the same as saying Westboro's picketing of Soldier's funerals represents all conservative Christians.

And can you imagine the fury of the media and democratic leaders if Neo Nazis were throwing stones at the police, damaging vehicles and buildings, and were caught on tape setting the hair on fire of an Obama supporter during his inauguration? Can you imagine the rhetoric coming from the media and democratic leaders if Hillary had won and the Westboro Baptist Church members were rioting, injuring people and causing expensive damage to property in various riots across the country? They would not be described as "fringe groups" having little to do with the republican party. Nor would the protests be described as "mostly peaceful". Instead there would be constant condemnation of the republican party for "rhetoric" that is helping to spur it on. You would have reporters constantly shoving microphones in the republican leaders faces asking them for their thoughts about the violence and damage being caused by their supporters. You may not admit it, but I do believe you are smart enough to know this is true.

 

[Gordon Gray]

And yesterday, the Senate approved a measure to eliminate a rule that prevents coal mining debris from being dumped into nearby streams.

Also yesterday, the House backed a separate Resolution doing away with extended background checks for gun purchases by some Social Security recipients with mental disabilities. This is going to the Senate for approval.

And this one on NPR this AM. There was a new rule that was to go into effect within the next month or so. The rule stated that brokers and others selling securities are required to recommend stocks, bonds, etc. that are in the "best financial interests" of the client. Republicans apparently feel this this is "too restrictive" and hampers the "free marketplace".

So, I suppose this is good news for those who are old and / or mentally unstable. They now will be able to buy a gun and also have brokers sell them a financial product that is a POS and is not in their best financial interests.

And it also appears they want to gut the Dowd - Frank bill, which was passed to prevent the financial mortgage meltdown that occurred some nine years ago.

I'm definitely feeling better everyday. :rocker:

PS: 45's tweet this AM. Iran is "playing with fire". I better expedite my plans to start building that bomb shelter.

 

[Gordon Gray]

I know how the media would be covering these incidents if the shoe was on the other foot. I know what would be said of people carrying "F*#! Hillary" signs. I know how the media would have covered a well known conservative entertainer if they were to have said they would like to blow up the White House.

Kevin, with all due respect, how do you "know" what the media would have done.

Seems, at best, speculative

Gordon

 

[Kevin]

Kevin, with all due respect, how do you "know" what the media would have done.

Seems, at best, speculative

Gordon

I read the Washington Post just about every day. I watch the news in the morning and evening, and believe it or not, I login as many hours watching MSNBC and CNN just as much as Fox. My wife watches the today show, and while I am eating breakfast in the morning I watch it too. I would say, and everyone that personally knows me would say so as well, that I am a certified news junkie. I know how the media was covering the so called "Trump violence" when he was at rallies campaigning. I know how the media has handled similar situations in the past. It's not hard to read the paper everyday or watch the news and pickup on the pattern of how various stories are being covered.......or not. To say that most of the main media sources today have a liberal slant can really no longer be debated as it was in years past. There have been to many reporters that have come out and have admitted as much.

In short, I know for the same reason that I know that Tom Brady is going to throw the ball a good bit in the upcoming Super Bowl. I don't have a crystal ball that tells me he will, but based upon past observance, it is all but certain.

 

[Rich]

Yeah, kind of hard to argue with a completely speculative argument about what the media might have said in a hypothetical situation. What I did see was the media, like cnn, reporting accurately about the violence that did occur and presenting the University's position on why it occurred. You know, reporting the facts. Like the media should.

But since you read the Washington Post every day, perhaps you read this story:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/pb/n...ity&nid=menu_nav_accessibilityforscreenreader

You seem to be following the standard Brietbart formula of conflating the anarchists with all the peaceful liberal protesters just as is described in the story. And then justifying it with: "well, if the shoe was on the other foot, the liberal media would be doing the same thing."

 

[Rich]

Anyone else notice that the terrorist in the French machete attack is reported to be from Egypt, a country not on Trump's travel ban list? Nor is Saudi Arabia on the travel ban list, though the majority of the 9/11 terrorists and Bin Laden himself were Saudi. Is it just a coincidence that Trump happens to have business ties with both Egypt and Saudi Arabia?

 

[Kevin]

Yeah, kind of hard to argue with a completely speculative argument about what the media might have said in a hypothetical situation. What I did see was the media, like cnn, reporting accurately about the violence that did occur and presenting the University's position on why it occurred. You know, reporting the facts. Like the media should.

But since you read the Washington Post every day, perhaps you read this story:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/pb/n...ity&nid=menu_nav_accessibilityforscreenreader

You seem to be following the standard Brietbart formula of conflating the anarchists with all the peaceful liberal protesters just as is described in the story. And then justifying it with: "well, if the shoe was on the other foot, the liberal media would be doing the same thing."

What I just heard on CNN was a clip of Don Lemon hosting former Democratic Labor of Secretary, Robert Reich, with Reich suggesting that the Berkeley 'anarchist' were very possibly right-wingers out to make the democrats look bad. These people have gone absolutely insane. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K977LL87rd8

That article was not in the paper yesterday, many articles, I think, are just online pieces that do not go to print. The one brief story in the printed paper yesterday, I have the paper in hand right now, was a story by Susan Svrluga with the headline "Berkeley cancels speech by Brietbart writer amid protests". Well...... no, they did not cancel the speech amid "protests" they canceled the speech amid "riots". The first line in the article starts off, "Amid intense protests....", hmmm... getting closer at least.

There are peaceful liberal protesters, I admit that. There are also liberals out there that are causing major property damage and even injuries to citizens and police. I am not conflating anything, that is the fact and I haven't said differently. You seem to suggest that these liberal "anarchist", miscreants, rabble rousers, protesters or whatever name you want to give them, should not at all be tied to the democrats. But you darn well know that if Neo Nazis were doing this they would be tied to the republicans. When the pushing, shoving and hitting was going on at a couple of Trump rallies, between isolated individuals, members on this site seemed at the time took this sort of stuff very seriously. Now that the violence involves more than just an individual here and there, but is most definitely tied to liberals, well....... this isn't that much at all.

 

[Kevin]

Anyone else notice that the terrorist in the French machete attack is reported to be from Egypt, a country not on Trump's travel ban list? Nor is Saudi Arabia on the travel ban list, though the majority of the 9/11 terrorists and Bin Laden himself were Saudi. Is it just a coincidence that Trump happens to have business ties with both Egypt and Saudi Arabia?

Yeah, and the countries on Trump's list just happen to be the same countries that Obama had placed travel restrictions upon. What are these two guys up to???

 

[Scumurculum]

Not true at all. There is a big difference between genuine refugees and people trying to claim that status to "game" our good will and kind-heartedness.

They're not "victims" - they put themselves in this situation. They paid people-smugglers tens of thousands of dollars to bring them here. They could have purchased a first-class ticket on a QANTAS A380 for less. The UN does not discriminate on how you get to a country of refuge - you can arrive by leaky boat or on a QANTAS A380 (reclining in seat 1A) with zero net effect on your status. Why did they not do take the first-class flight (for a lot less money then)? Because you can't do that if you don't have proper documents, can you? You can't board a plane if your intention is to thow your documentation overboard, can you? Because they had something to hide. THEY WERE ILLEGAL!. They were NOT genuine refugees at all.

Most Australians are compassionate enough to accept genuine refugees. Most also - are not prepared to be taken advantage of.

This delination is important - as this is what causes the controversey.

Australia had a big problem with the previous government - allowing all and sundry to enter Australia (so long as they claimed to be a refugee. )

That of course created a snowball effect........ "Just say you're a "refugee" and you'll get in".......haha. Throw your documentation overboard and they'll never know.....double-haha.

That problem has now been stopped by tough border control, but there remains a stand-out of people who refuse to budge. Thankfully - it is not an ongoing problem for us........but the "old" problem needs to be dealt with. That was the subject of this deal, which involved a simlar swap of people with the same predicament in the US. Therefore, benefit to both countries.

Of course, Australia continues to accept refugees - but through the official channels - not people who pay 10 times the price of a FIRST CLASS QANTAS A380 ticket to people smugglers so as to "game" the system.

This - it must be noted - is now BI-PARTISAN Australian policy.

Agree with Scumurculum's previous comment though - you treat your allies with respect - even when there are disagreements.

I don't give a shit about how people got into a country. But to imprison people in appalling conditions with no defined end point, sometimes for years on end, for political reasons only is an act of evil. I might add isolated from media scrutiny - you dont want people to see them as real human beings do you?

If 99.999% of the Australian population agree with it, it does not make it less evil.

Before you throw the prevention of death at seas thing forward. All it has done it move the tragedy elsewhere, to become someone else's problem. Eg. the Mediterranean.

Anyway lets not bore the Americans with internal Australian political arguments

 

[Scumurculum]

What I just heard on CNN was a clip of Don Lemon hosting former Democratic Labor of Secretary, Robert Reich, with Reich suggesting that the Berkeley 'anarchist' were very possibly right-wingers out to make the democrats look bad. These people have gone absolutely insane. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K977LL87rd8

That article was not in the paper yesterday, many articles, I think, are just online pieces that do not go to print. The one brief story in the printed paper yesterday, I have the paper in hand right now, was a story by Susan Svrluga with the headline "Berkeley cancels speech by Brietbart writer amid protests". Well...... no, they did not cancel the speech amid "protests" they canceled the speech amid "riots". The first line in the article starts off, "Amid intense protests....", hmmm... getting closer at least.

There are peaceful liberal protesters, I admit that. There are also liberals out there that are causing major property damage and even injuries to citizens and police. I am not conflating anything, that is the fact and I haven't said differently. You seem to suggest that these liberal "anarchist", miscreants, rabble rousers, protesters or whatever name you want to give them, should not at all be tied to the democrats. But you darn well know that if Neo Nazis were doing this they would be tied to the republicans. When the pushing, shoving and hitting was going on at a couple of Trump rallies, between isolated individuals, members on this site seemed at the time took this sort of stuff very seriously. Now that the violence involves more than just an individual here and there, but is most definitely tied to liberals, well....... this isn't that much at all.

If you spend all your time looking for a conspiracy. You will inevitability succeed

 

[amey01]

I don't give a shit about how people got into a country. But to imprison people in appalling conditions with no defined end point,

They're not "detained" - the gates are open and they're free to roam around the island as locals.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-12/gates-to-manus-island-detention-centre-opened/7409552

Before you throw the prevention of death at seas thing forward. All it has done it move the tragedy elsewhere, to become someone else's problem. Eg. the Mediterranean.

No - just not be taken advantange of.

The "prevention of deaths" part is in their own hands....... they could save a lot of money and just buy a plane ticket here. It would be safer, cheaper and quicker. Why don't they do that?

Anyway lets not bore the Americans with internal Australian political arguments

I wouldn't call it "boring" - I think it is very important and interesting to understand the source/background of a policy which has been generating significant media coverage in both countries over the last week.

 

[Scumurculum]

They're not "detained" - the gates are open and they're free to roam around the island as locals.


I know someone who worked on manus island fence. The fence was not designed to keep the refugees in but to keep the locals out. The place is not safe for them outside the camp.

 

[Kevin]

If you spend all your time looking for a conspiracy. You will inevitability succeed

Not sure how Rich mentioning CNN and my recalling a segment that I had just watched on CNN the night before amounts to spending all my time looking for a conspiracy. I only had to look for the clip on youtube, I knew from how ridiculous it was that it had to be there. Are you suggesting that watching CNN is akin to looking for conspiracies?

 

[Kevin]

I wouldn't call it "boring" - I think it is very important and interesting to understand the source/background of a policy which has been generating significant media coverage in both countries over the last week.

I can't speak for others, but I don't find it boring. Obviously immigration is a big topic in a number of countries, it's great to hear first hand knowledge from people who are local. The countries might be different, but the situation and differing views are all to familiar.

I have no problem with immigration, no problem with the color of the skin of the migrant, and no problem with the religion of the migrant. What I do have a problem with is whether or not that migrant truly wants to be an American. I think our migrants have generally assimilated well into American traditions and cultures. Some the European countries appear to not have fared nearly so well. I would hate to wake up one day and find out we have that same problem, not do I wish that problem on my future grandchildren. There is a difference between a Pakistani living in America as opposed to an American who just happens to be from Pakistan. I also have a big problem with people illegally crossing our border and then claiming they have a right to be here simply because they did.