Stereo Amp + HT Receiver OR 5 channel amp + pre/pro

[sahihe]

Looking for amplification recommendation for Vantage fronts, Stage center, and Encore TF as surrounds.

The system gets used for both music (40%) and movies (60%) - but music is what I care about more.

Two channel source is PC+Tranquility DAC.

I am considering two options:

Belles 150A Reference 2 (for vantages) + Denon 4311ci (process HT and drive stage center and the surrounds)

Sunfire Grand Cinema 225x5 (for all channels) + Marantz 7005 as pre/pro.

Read all kinds of posts and reviews, but having a hard time deciding which way to go. Trying to figure out what will have a bigger impact - a better amp (assuming belles 150A > Sunfire Grand Cinema) or a better processor (assuming marantz 7005 > denon 4311ci)

I did have an opportunity to listen to sunfire amp in my system and it did sound good - liked the warm and smooth midrange, but that was with my old onkyo receiver.

If you've heard these and can provide your impressions that would be great.
Or if you have other suggestions on how to go about this - future upgrade path etc, please tell.

Thanks.

 

[timm]

I don't know anything about that amp... I know the Sunfire.. I have a signature 5 channel and like it... but i use it to bi-amp my Odysseys... can't bi-amp Vantages... A lot depends on your $$$ situation... I got a sunfire sig amp and the sunfire pre/pro...then about 5 years later got a cary slp98p pre-amp and had my sunfire bi-amping the Odysseys for my stereo .. and have a seperate space for my HT... Using the center channel from the sunfire and two old carver stereo amps to run that along with my sunfire pre/pro.

I would go for the better amp - if at some point in the future you think you are going to get a killer stereo pre-amp. I would go w the 5 channel amp if you think you are always going to use the receiver as your pre/pro. Options down the road: consider emotiva for 5 channel amp and processor for HT...very inexpensive - but great bang for buck..and since you seem to lean towards stereo anyway.. you could get the stereo handled up front nicely - and later on when funds allow - get a nice HT setup as well.... Just my 2 cents and opinion of course...

 

[JonFo]

Having tested a Belles way back, and running Sunfires now for the past 12+ years, I can assure you the Sunfire would be a better match for the MLs.

As for whether the pre-pro or a Receiver in pre-mode (the 4311 has a way to disable the amps IIRC) I'd say it's more of a choice of features that will be the influencer here.

I believe the value of Audyssey XT32 room correction in the 4311 would trump other possible advantages of a Marantz. But only you can weigh that.

 

[jmschnur]

I agree that xt 32 is very important. In the end I went with a good stereo amp; Bryston for stereo and an outlaw 7500 for the rest with a integra 80.2 the results with my stage and vantage fronts have been very good.

I think building in flexibility for future upgrades is very important.

 

[sahihe]

Whoops, completely forgot about following up on this.

Thanks for the advice Timm, JonFo and Jmschnur.

Due to space and budget limitations I am leaning towards a system that can combine the two channel and the HT setup. Thanks for the recommendations, I went the receiver with preout route, and bought the 4311ci for xt32, it should get here today.

With that down, I've got two options for amplification:
Drive Center (Stage) and Surrounds (Encore TF) from 4311ci and fronts with an external stereo amp.
Or drive all channels from an external 5 channel amp.

Everything I've read on the Sunfire has been positive. From reading the forums, it appears I would have to put in 3K+ towards a used stereo amp to do much better than a Sunfire Signature 5 channel (around 1.5K used). I am trying to keep the amp budget to around 2k. Any suggestions within that budget that would out-do the Sunfire. I mostly listen to jazz vocals, and would like to optimize for liquid and organic midrange.

I am thinking of adding a tube stereo preamp with a HT bypass, or a tube buffer between 4311ci and amplifier for the front channels. But, I should probably pace myself. I am just getting into this world and don't quite have my own preferences figured out yet, or even the experience to know what to listen for.

 

[sahihe]

Hi Jon,

Looked through your system thread and found lots of cool info in it. I am using a Win7 system as the music server, and got the idea to install Foobar with the touchremote component, allowing me to control everything from my iphone and ipad. This is so very awesome.

With the 4311ci, I am going to look into the DLNA server/client setup that you have going. Currently I am using the Tranquility DAC via USB.

Thanks for sharing all the wonderful info.

 

[Hocky]

In my opinion, your front 3 should share the same amplification whether that is in one box or multiple. I think a stereo amp + receiver on the center wouldn't be ideal.

 

[jmschnur]

Why do you say that? I listen mostly to stereo and my Bryston does great for two channel . I use my Outlaw 7500 for 5 more channels. I have two subs.

Audyssey xt32 coordinates these well.

What am I missing in my stereo listenIng by having a truly superior amp for the two channels and what is the penalty using a 5 channel amp for the rest including the center when I watch blu ray or tv?

 

[timm]

Well here. Is my pennys worth based on what I like of course. I have a sunfire sig 5 channel biamped on my Odysseys. I have a cary slp98p tube pre for stereo listening. I also have a sunfire TGIII for movies. I use 2 old carver amps for my movies and also the center channel of the sunfire. I have paradigm fronts center and use my old phase tech mini monitors for rears. I also have my old paradigm sub doing duty for HT as well as a descent doing both stereo and HT.

My point is that I kept everything together for my stereo listening and my HT is kind of a hodge podge but the subs and the processor deliver the goods. I am not that discerning when it comes to HT. Maybe you are the same? My HT has quality non matching stuff in it and I like it.

 

[Hocky]

Why do you say that? I listen mostly to stereo and my Bryston does great for two channel . I use my Outlaw 7500 for 5 more channels. I have two subs.

Audyssey xt32 coordinates these well.

What am I missing in my stereo listenIng by having a truly superior amp for the two channels and what is the penalty using a 5 channel amp for the rest including the center when I watch blu ray or tv?

Your center will have different tonality, different spl/dynamic capability, and possibly different gain than the front mains if you're not using like amps. If the front stage is not proper tone and leveled matched, I won't watch it. The center is the core in HT.

 

[Spike]

Your center will have different tonality, different spl/dynamic capability, and possibly different gain than the front mains if you're not using like amps. If the front stage is not proper tone and leveled matched, I won't watch it. The center is the core in HT.

Doesn't your center speaker have a different tonality, spl/dynamics and gain by definition already? Unless you're running the front 3 channels with the same speaker models, everything else will pose this difference you're objecting to. Regarding gains and level matching, wouldn't calibration take care of this issue? I don't understand your premise about using like amps while your speakers are not the same to begin with.

Spike

 

[Hocky]

Doesn't your center speaker have a different tonality, spl/dynamics and gain by definition already? Unless you're running the front 3 channels with the same speaker models, everything else will pose this difference you're objecting to. Regarding gains and level matching, wouldn't calibration take care of this issue? I don't understand your premise about using like amps while your speakers are not the same to begin with.

Spike

Sure, they're different, but if you buy the center that is designed to be matched to your speakers, it fills the gap well and should be a fairly seamless transition. In my combo, the Stage to Summits has this blend. If you're giving the Stage 140w and the main significantly more than that, your peak spl and range will be way smaller at the center channel since it is less efficient and drops db faster over a given distance. I am not going to do the math, but I would guess you would be clipping your receiver's amp around 100db at 10ft listening difference with a 4311 while the mains could probably do another 10+db on top of that. That is loud, but that is the ballpark of peak dynamics in movies. So, my opinion is that if you enjoy movies (which I assume you do since you spent money on a good center channel), get equal amplification for the center. If you really don't care about the movies and/or listening quietly, it probably doesn't matter.

 

[mopar04]

For your center channel you could use http://emotiva.com/upa1.shtm, 200w @8ohm, 350w @4ohm for $300, which you can probably fit into your budget. Might be slightly lower SQ than the amp for you FL/FR but will provide way more headroom than your 4311 and be much easier to match the SPLs and gain of your fronts.

 

[sahihe]

Very cool, thanks for all the suggestions. I am reading a lot of awesome systems being driven by Sunfires, I think I'll be quite happy with a Signature 5 channel in my system for driving both the HT and the stereo part.

Now on the lookout for a used one on AGon.

Did the audyssey setup on my 4311 today, and kind of disappointed - the resulting sound is quite thin. I am liking the Pure Direct mode much better. The sub is right in the middle of the fronts - should have been an easy setup to get right. I'll probably redo the setup and see if it helps.

Timm, for your 2 channel path, have you had a chance to compare the SQ improvement provided by an analog only path to that provided by a room eq tech like Audyssey.

Thanks!

 

[JonFo]

sahihe, congrats on the new preamp (/receiver).

Good plan to pick up a used Sunfire CG-Sig, that is a great amp.

The results from an Audyssey correction can take some getting used to, especially in the bass, as it will clean up room modes one gets used to having, and when they are gone, it sounds pretty different. This often comes across as 'thin' , 'no bass', etc.

However, there is a good chance your measurements might not have been taken quite right, and a re-do using appropriate techniques will yield a much better result.

Please read this guide I created on how to run an effective Room Correction measurement for ML systems:
http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?9401-Room-correction-setup-guide-for-ML’s

 

[timm]

Very cool, thanks for all the suggestions. I am reading a lot of awesome systems being driven by Sunfires, I think I'll be quite happy with a Signature 5 channel in my system for driving both the HT and the stereo part.

Now on the lookout for a used one on AGon.

Did the audyssey setup on my 4311 today, and kind of disappointed - the resulting sound is quite thin. I am liking the Pure Direct mode much better. The sub is right in the middle of the fronts - should have been an easy setup to get right. I'll probably redo the setup and see if it helps.

Timm, for your 2 channel path, have you had a chance to compare the SQ improvement provided by an analog only path to that provided by a room eq tech like Audyssey
Thanks!

I do not use room dsp. I go 5 channel analog out to my processor. I have not had a chance to use something like audyssey. I use the DAC in my bluray to my tgIII because the tgIII does not have dolby tru hd etc. The only thing I have control over is the volume level of front rears sub in direct mode. Again that works for me. In my system I like going analog out as opposed to digital out because I think it sounds better.

For 2 channel I am analog out to my tube pre. No dsp. Just a volume control on the pre with the additional volume on the descent sub. I don't think audyssey us meant for 2 channel really.