Room Treatment for Summits

[Rich]

However having said that; If you want to take to it another level AND if you are willing/able to biamp and/or run a seperate sub AND you can get your hands on an amp that has an extremly high damping factor, Crown K2 for exmple, the bass then becomes very tight. You feel it in your solar plexus. I'm not talking about loud thumping bass, although you can turn it up if you want, I'm talking about really feeling it while not hearing it stand out. (I know a lot of ifs and ANDs but well worth it IMO)

I agree that biamping can work wonders for the bass on some of the older ML models like the Ascents or Prodigys, but not in this case. Neil H has Summits, which are already internally biamped.

Now he could match them up with a subwoofer, but I don't think that will result in much improvement, especially until the room has some acoustic treatments. I find no need to match my Descent with my Summits for music. In my acoustically-treated room, I find that the Summits have deep, tight quality bass response and the Descent adds very little benefit.

 

[David Matz]

Neil,

I want to echo the comments about room treatments. Get as many as you can afford. However, 2 good ones like the Mondo traps in the corners behind your speakers will be a start. Another pair reversed and placed behind your speakers will absorb the back waves from your speakers.

Because this stuff is experiential, most people don't realize how much of a difference a few bags of insulation from a local hardware store can make in a room.

It is almost comical to read posts about people getting caught up in upgrade-itis, chasing that perfect sound and upgrading to tubes, purchasing expensive amps and preamps and speakers without treating their rooms first. Give me an old Logan with old modestly priced electronics in a well treated room over the Summit with $20K of electronics in an untreated room.

 

[Ethan Winer]

It is almost comical to read posts about people getting caught up in upgrade-itis, chasing that perfect sound and upgrading to tubes, purchasing expensive amps and preamps and speakers without treating their rooms first. Give me an old Logan with old modestly priced electronics in a well treated room over the Summit with $20K of electronics in an untreated room.

Testify, brother. :bowdown:

I gave a talk at a local audiophile club a few weeks ago and they started the meeting, as always, with members listing what gear they have to sell. eBay and Audiogon are further testaments to how audiophiles are never happy with the sound of their systems, so they keep buying yet more stuff searching for that elusive holy grail. Yet they continue to overlook the one "component" that really does make a big improvement.

--Ethan

 

[Satch]

Ethan,

First off, Thanks for all the advice and excellent service. The traps have really helped tame the adverse effects of my asymmetrical listening room and overall sound quality of my system.

Just wondering, Ethan, if you have any opinion on the ASC Sub Trap. Are you guys working on anything like that?

Neil, sorry about jumping on your thread. I'll start my own thread when I can get some good photos up.

Satch

 

[Neil H]

In my opinion, you are getting reflections from the rear wave of your speaker which are causing your highs to sound glaring and are probably also muddying your mid-bass response, imaging, and soundstaging. You are also dealing with bass peaks and nulls and the excitation of certain room modes, which are common problems to all rooms and which affects the clarity and quality of your bass response.

You need, in my opinion, a full-frequency absorptive panel behind each speaker, as well as bass traps in as many of the room corners as you can fit. You also need some absorption at the first reflection points on the side walls. If you do this, you will experience a quantum leap in your overall sound quality, clarity, imaging, soundstaging, and bass response. You will get a better bang-for-the-buck upgrade than just about any other component of your system that you could upgrade.

I think I will go this way but am unsure of which products will suit. I have read about the ASC tube traps (not sure if available in Australia) and Mondo traps (available in Australia) but am not clear about what type would suit. You say I should get bass traps in the corners which shouldn't be a problem as both of the above products and I presume many others stress the ability of the products to absorb bass.

But what of the full-frequency absorptive panels that you mention. The websites don't seem to be clear on the affect of their products on the mid and upper frequencies. For example does anyone know how the Mondo traps affect the mid and upper frequencies.

Any advice or experience with such products would be much appreciated.

 

[benleeys]

I think I will go this way but am unsure of which products will suit. I have read about the ASC tube traps (not sure if available in Australia) and Mondo traps (available in Australia) but am not clear about what type would suit. You say I should get bass traps in the corners which shouldn't be a problem as both of the above products and I presume many others stress the ability of the products to absorb bass.

But what of the full-frequency absorptive panels that you mention. The websites don't seem to be clear on the affect of their products on the mid and upper frequencies. For example does anyone know how the Mondo traps affect the mid and upper frequencies.

Any advice or experience with such products would be much appreciated.

Neil,

If you wish, you may also contact Ethan (yea, the guy with a black cat). He is the guy to consult for Mondo and its family of traps. I've have had invaluable advice from him and his people for my room. Email him at www.RealTraps.com/contact.htm, with pics of your room if possible.

He only charges by the hour ... just kidding.

 

[David Matz]

But what of the full-frequency absorptive panels that you mention. The websites don't seem to be clear on the affect of their products on the mid and upper frequencies. For example does anyone know how the Mondo traps affect the mid and upper frequencies.

Any advice or experience with such products would be much appreciated.

Ethan may be the best person to answer this, but I believe one of his competitive advantages is that he uses a material that reflects the highs and mids, while absorbing the bass. Turning the Mondo trap around 180 degrees absorbs everything. Adding many DIY products or his competitors' products can make the room too dead.

In my small room, I have the Mondo traps in the corners turned 180 degrees. They absorb the bass and the back waves from the speakers.

 

[Ethan Winer]

Just wondering, Ethan, if you have any opinion on the ASC Sub Trap. Are you guys working on anything like that?

In my experience only some rooms benefit from speaker isolation. If your sub is not huge, have a friend over to lift it 1/4 inch while you listen. If you hear no change, then you won't benefit from isolation. Generally, the more flexible the floor, the more likely an isolator will help. My partner and I considered a product like this, but decided we'd rather stick to things that make a more profound improvement. Even when isolation helps, the improvement is small. Reports of "greatly improved bass clarity" are overstated IMO.

--Ethan

 

[Ethan Winer]

Email him at ...

Thanks for the plug, but if you don't mind, would you do me a favor and change the link in your post to our Contact page:

www.realtraps.com/contact.htm

Email addresses in public web sites are a magnet for spammers who go from site to site "harvesting" email addresses.

Thanks.

--Ethan

 

[Ethan Winer]

Turning the Mondo trap around 180 degrees absorbs everything.

Yes, and we also offer all of our traps in an "HF" style to so you don't have to do that with the rear toward the room.

--Ethan

 

[benleeys]

Thanks for the plug, but if you don't mind, would you do me a favor and change the link in your post to our Contact page:

www.realtraps.com/contact.htm

Email addresses in public web sites are a magnet for spammers who go from site to site "harvesting" email addresses.

Thanks.

--Ethan

Done. Sorry, should have thought of it. Actually am not in marketing, just helping to pointing Neil hopefully in the right direction.
Can never make a living in this profession as goofed ever so often.

 

[Gordon]

I've had the RealTraps Mini HF's up behind my Vantages for a few months now. I've also got 2 Tricorners on the floor up front. I've had the HF's hanging like a picture since I got them. Today I thought I'd try Ethans other method of using 4X4 post holders to get them off the wall a bit.

The effect of moving them off the wall that 4 inches has had a significant improvement in the mid to low bass. It did not have the same impact that moving the speakers forward did that had me in awe last week, but every little improvement is a good thing.

For a cost of only $25.00 and a little drilling and dust the results were worth it.

Gordon

 

[babydoc]

Summit Room Treatment

I have been reading this thread with interest. I have a room which is 21x15x8
with Summits along the long wall. I have experimented with speaker placement (now out about 56" from the front wall) with minimal toe-in. I have also nearly eliminated the rake-angle so they are 10 degrees off vertical (a compromise between image height and image depth). I have placed the Summits and my Descent subwoofers on SoundGuard isolated platforms so that they are about 2" above the carpet.
Sound treatment consistents of EchoBuster Corner panels, EchoBuster panels behind and between the speakers and at the first reflection point on either side of the speakers. I have two sets of Double Busters on the rear wall behnd the listening position and 1 set of Bass Busters in the corners behind the front subwoofers.
With the help of a sound pressure meter and my ears, I think that I have good a good balance across the frequency bandwidth. Taming bass frequency nodes, I have 4 subwoofers 90 degrees out of phase in each corner. All of the subs including those in the Summits are down at least 4 db.
Using good bass sources (mostly acoustic bass recordings and well-recorded organ pedal notes) the bass is well articulated.

 

[JonFo]

Testify, brother. :bowdown:

I gave a talk at a local audiophile club a few weeks ago and they started the meeting, as always, with members listing what gear they have to sell. eBay and Audiogon are further testaments to how audiophiles are never happy with the sound of their systems, so they keep buying yet more stuff searching for that elusive holy grail. Yet they continue to overlook the one "component" that really does make a big improvement.

--Ethan

So true, it is indeed sad.

However, I find it very gratifying to see so many on the site recognizing the importance of room acoustics and doing something about it.

Even if people start out with just a few items, it makes way more difference than any cable would

I can tell you, putting a lot of effort into room acoustics sure pays off. I've never heard my system sound so good.
I'll be posting more info on the latest round of treatments soon.