My new Prodigy panels are on the way in the mail!

[Robert D]

Thought I would start a thread about my experience ordering and setting up my new Prodigy panels. I ordered the panels back in late October I think. Lost track a bit. So it took a bit over 5 months to get my turn for new panels. I originally was going to have someone recondition them but that didnt work out so I just ordered new ones through email with Ron and Martin Logan. Panels should be here in my hands by the end of the week.

Ron has been great the whole time and is fast to reply on email. I think with the covid-19 conditions you are best off using email and not calling. It was that way back last year at least. Ron said there is only one person that makes the new panels, so it is slow going. They have a queue you get into. Last week they made mine and they ship out today. You dont need to pay for the panels until they are ready to ship.

I just contacted Ron with the model of my speakers and I even sent a picture of the serial number on my speaker to be sure there isnt any kind of difference in the year it was produced. I was worried about fit. He contacted me back with the cost.

I will report back here once I get the panels and install them. Ill let you know what I think about the sound. Im also going to try something that probably wont work great, but I want to try. I have a nice newer Marantz receiver that is Dolby atoms 11 channels. I dont use the front channels at all on it. Im going to try biamping using those for the woofers, and then use my Aragon for the panels. I will compare the sound of that to the normal way I do it using the Aragon alone. Im pretty sure the gain is different on them so I dont know how its going to work out. I feel like I had to try since ive been curious to see.

 

[roni44]

Does Prodigy original came with Gen 2 panel? if does, I'm really interest to hear the difference compare to new built panel.

 

[Lightloopy]

I also just received my replacement CLS II panels this week after placing the order in Oct. Brian was always responsive to my emails and I am looking forward to seeing how the panels sound. It's nice that there is still support for these 20+ year old speakers.

 

[Spike]

Funny how things aligned. UPS just delivered my replacement panels 1 hour ago. Ordered back in mid October 2020 and they are finally here! Once I get them installed, I am planning to send my original panels to Russ Knotts for reconditioning. I am planning to keep them as spares for the future.

 

[Robert D]

Does Prodigy original came with Gen 2 panel? if does, I'm really interest to hear the difference compare to new built panel.

I'm not sure about what gen it was. I read that the coating used now is different from what I had, and some other minor differences. Ron sent me a document explaining the differences between the old panels and what I am getting. It's not handy now, but maybe I will remember to post up the differences later.

 

[Robert D]

Funny how things aligned. UPS just delivered my replacement panels 1 hour ago. Ordered back in mid October 2020 and they are finally here! Once I get them installed, I am planning to send my original panels to Russ Knotts for reconditioning. I am planning to keep them as spares for the future.

Make sure he thinks he can do yours. He wasn't really able to do my Prodigy panels because of all the tape ML used. Separating the 2 panels would have most probably lead to tearing of the mylar.

 

[Lightloopy]

It would be interesting to know really how much demand there is for vintage panels. Since it seems ML is now the only source besides the fellow in Germany, wonder how many a month they do? It would seem to be a real niche business to start if one has the skill.

 

[Robert D]

Got them in today. The packaging is great and even has Prodigy printed on the box. Shipping only took about 2 days to get here in Ohio.

I installed them and it was a bit of a battle for me, but Im not exactly a pro at these sort of things. The holes at times were hard to match up and I ended up drilling a few new holes, but in the end it looks good. I used the stat stops of course too, and those are the hardest thing to line up the holes on.

I have not tested them, they arent even connected yet. I will do all of that tomorrow and am really looking forward to it. The panels look identical to the old ones IMO.

 

[Robert D]

Here is a copy of the text from a PDF that ML sent me on replacement panels, for those of you with questions.

Stat Panel Replacement FAQ

Q: How will I know when my stat panels need to be replaced?
A: Typically over time stat panels can begin to lose both brightness and
efficiency. If your speakers have begun to sound “dull” or bass heavy, or you find
that you are turning up the volume knob on your pre-amp higher than you are
used to in order to attain the same output, it may be time to consider replacing
your panels.
Q: How long should a pair of stat panels last?
A: This can vary due to environment, how much the speakers have been played
and many other factors, but in general, somewhere around the 15 year mark is
when most speakers can benefit from having their panels replaced, although it is
not unheard of for 20 year old panels to be working fine. We are constantly
working on ways to improve the technology and increase the lifespan of our
panels.
Q: Can my panels be rebuilt or refurbished?
A: This is not something that we have found to be cost effective. Due to the
adhesives and other materials used in the construction of these,( and the resulting
difficulties in taking an old panel apart and stripping it down without damaging
the metal or the coating) it is far more cost effective to build a panel from scratch.
Q: Do I need to send my speakers somewhere to have the panels replaced?
A: No. In the vast majority of cases this is something that can easily be done at
home by the speaker owners with just a few basic tools. We provide excellent
instructions and advice on how to do this.
Q: Only one of my panels is not working. Can I just replace a single panel?
A: While it is technically possible to replace a single stat, this is usually not
recommended, as the new stat will likely be much brighter and more efficient than
the older panel, creating a very noticeable imbalance. Almost anytime that
someone has ordered a single panel for a legacy product, they have ended up
ordering a second stat, which means that they wind up paying for shipping twice,
so there is that to consider.
Q: How much will a new pair of panels cost and how do I order them?
A: This will depend on the model of speaker that you have. You can order new
panels directly through our service department, and they can quote a price for
you. Note that most panels are not stocked and are built to order, with a typical
lead time of about 4 weeks. (If you are outside of the US, please contact your
local dealer or distributor for pricing and delivery options.)

Q: Will new panels be the same as my original panels? Have there been any
changes to the technology for stat panels?
A: The new panels incorporate some of the newer technology (clear spars (for
some models) improved adhesives and improved Mylar coatings). Also note that
the color of the new panels may be slightly different, due to a change of powder-
coating. It now has a bit of a brownish tint to it with small gold specs. If you have
a chance to see one of our newer speakers in person you can see the color of the
panel. It will not match the black lower grill in some older models exactly. For
many people this is not an issue, but it bears mentioning. (Picture shows new
panel with an older bottom metal grill).

Q: Is there anything I can do to increase the lifespan of my panels?
A: The best thing you can do is to keep the panels clean and be sure to keep
liquids away from them. In order to clean the stator panels correctly, please
unplug the speakers from the AC mains and let them sit for at least 4-6 hours to
discharge completely. Once you have done this, you can use a good strong
vacuum cleaner with a hose attachment to vacuum the front side of the stator
panel. The back side does not hold a charge, so you do not need to concentrate on
the back side of the stator panel. But you can do a quick clean on it if you wish. I
don't necessarily recommend using the brush attachment since I feel that this just
pushes the dust around or could possibly add more if the brush attachment has
been previously used. Start at the top of the stator and work your way across and
down until you have vacuumed the whole stator. Be sure to concentrate on any
spots that you hear popping or clicking noises. This will not harm the stator panel
in any way and is actually what we recommend in order to clean your stator
panels for longevity.
Q: Are there any other options for bringing an old panel back to life?
A: Some people on the Martin Logan Owners Forum have reported good results
from actually “washing” their old stat panels. You can read more about it here:
http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?12584-MartinLogan-Shower-Cleaning-PDF

Note that this is an independent website, and is not owned by MartinLogan. All
comments, suggestions and opinions on the website are those of the people
posting there and are not necessarily those of MartinLogan. Also note that
washing panels would be a last resort, and there is always the possibility of doing
permanent damage to the panel. Our recommendation is that this not be done
unless you have already decided to purchase new panels.

 

[JonFo]

I have not tested them, they arent even connected yet. I will do all of that tomorrow and am really looking forward to it. The panels look identical to the old ones IMO.

Yes, the stator elements are identical to the originals, still a Gen1 perf spacing and thickness. But the mylar and the coating are the most recent formulations used on current ESL panels, as are the spars that separate the diaphragm from the stators. The new ones are clear. The conductors, glues and insulators are likewise modern variants as used on the latest models.

All this reminds me that while I got a good deal ordering my Monolith panels just before the price hike, they were using black spars back then for the big panels. The SL3 panels I bought at the same time had clear spars. And I'd love to have clear ones on the huge Monoliths, so I might order a set while they are still making them.

 

[JonFo]

Im also going to try something that probably wont work great, but I want to try. I have a nice newer Marantz receiver that is Dolby atoms 11 channels. I dont use the front channels at all on it. Im going to try biamping using those for the woofers, and then use my Aragon for the panels. I will compare the sound of that to the normal way I do it using the Aragon alone. Im pretty sure the gain is different on them so I dont know how its going to work out. I feel like I had to try since ive been curious to see.

Yes, this is a challenge, but one that can likely be solved.

Using the Aragon to power just the woofers (one speaker, not both), set the volume on the Marantz to a level that generates roughly 75dB (use Studio Six Digital Audio Tools). Make note of the level on the Marantz required to reach that.
Now hook up the speaker output of the Marantz to the same woofer section, and see what level output it delivers at the same volume setting. If the measurement is the same, then you are set.

Otherwise, if it's higher or lower, you will need to depend on the Audyssey room corrector to fix things for you, as there is no way to vary the internal amp output without affecting the levels sent to the Aragon. But a good dose of EQ can fix many a speaker imbalance. Do follow my tips in this Room correction setup guide for ML’s

 

[Robert D]

Yes, this is a challenge, but one that can likely be solved.

Using the Aragon to power just the woofers (one speaker, not both), set the volume on the Marantz to a level that generates roughly 75dB (use Studio Six Digital Audio Tools). Make note of the level on the Marantz required to reach that.
Now hook up the speaker output of the Marantz to the same woofer section, and see what level output it delivers at the same volume setting. If the measurement is the same, then you are set.

Otherwise, if it's higher or lower, you will need to depend on the Audyssey room corrector to fix things for you, as there is no way to vary the internal amp output without affecting the levels sent to the Aragon. But a good dose of EQ can fix many a speaker imbalance. Do follow my tips in this Room correction setup guide for ML’s

Thanks. I was thinking that Audyssey might balance things out. If it doesn't work, it's no big loss because using the Aragon on its own sounds very good.

 

[Robert D]

I've got an error now trying to calibrate with Audyssey. Never had this before. It says the Prodigy speakers are now out of phase. I've tried it about 4 times, rechecked all connections and the error won't stop. I tried just running with the one Aragon amp too.

Is it possible that the new panels have the polarity switched? The plug only goes on one way, so it has to be plugged in right. The speakers never did this before.

Anyone have any ideas? I don't have any other way to test phase. I guess I'll just have to "ignore the error"?

 

[Lightloopy]

I'm sure the advanced folk here will help you. How do the new panels sound compared to your old ones?
Good luck!

 

[Robert D]

I'm sure the advanced folk here will help you. How do the new panels sound compared to your old ones?
Good luck!

They sound great. Much more volume and the high end is more clear. I've heard they take a bit to break in too. They don't sound out of phase. I don't know what the problem is. I just hit ignore.

I think I will now try using the receiver's amp to drive the woofers and the Aragon just for the panels. Compare sound.

Anyone know what's up with the phase!? That shit drives me nuts. I'm worried something is wrong. 1st time ive ever seen this. I was worried that biamping it caused the error, but apparently not. So I'm trying the biamping next.

I was happily surprised to see that the gain on my receiver is about the same as the Aragon because the volume level on the woofers measured the same on both. Thanks Jonfo.

 

[Lightloopy]

That is why I shy away from all that. I am just not good with it. I just connect the red cable to the input with the red color and black to black and.. viola.
Oh- and one phase inversion for the CJ preamp

 

[Robert D]

That is why I shy away from all that. I am just not good with it. I just connect the red cable to the input with the red color and black to black and.. viola.
Oh- and one phase inversion for the CJ preamp

It usually doesn't do this. I read some speakers can though, maybe it's the nature of the new panels? Wondering if any members have had this.

 

[Robert D]

Found this thread. Maybe it's the rear wave reflection causing the issue? The old panels were worn out so maybe they didn't do that?

https://www.martinloganowners.com/threads/one-summit-out-of-phase-with-audyssey-measurements.6116/
My old ones were set at +13 db on the eq and the new ones are -1.5. Quite a difference!

 

[ttocs]

I used to get phase inversion of only the Right speaker with some runs of Dirac until I added extra absorption in the corner for the Right speaker. A reflection was causing confusion.

 

[Robert D]

Well, I think it sounded better just using the Aragon alone to drive the speakers. When using the Marantz receiver to power the woofers, it seems like I lost that 3D sound. With just the Aragon on I actually got up to check to see if the center channel theater i was on. There was a definite center stage sound, better than my old panels. It sounded great.

Once I switched to using the Marantz, I lost that sound and it just sounded like 2 separate speakers playing. The bass was every bit as good though. Strange. So I'm going to run Audyssey again just using the Aragon and some jumpers.