DTB300
Well-known member
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz troll zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz same old tireless post zzzzzzzzz buy rad shack then zzzzzzzzzzzz
ML newbie in sudden hot water...
- Thread starter The Goal is Soul
- Start date
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PeterWhite
Guest
How nice of you to say that. And to think, I just got here!
A bit of advice: If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing.
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Hi Peter,
So are you saying that good amplifiers, be they SS or tubes, with similar specs, will effectively sound identical with matched (+ / - 0.1db) volume levels?
All I can say is WOW.
Contradicts everything I've heard / learned over the last 30 years or so of being in this hobby.
Perhaps that's why you are getting the responses you are since many folks, like me, would seem to differ strongly with your assertion.
By the by, blind A-B tests cannot tell you about the "nuances" of any particular product but is merely a snapshot in time that may or may not prove to be accurate within the perspective of long term listening satisfaction.
Most folks will generally live with a component for a minimum seven days (if not longer) listening to a variety of material, to fully flesh out the sonic signature of any piece of gear.
GG
PS: It's quite pretentious of you to be giving advice on appropriate manners given the fact that you have posted three times.
PPS: Hi Mark. What happens when you reach zero?
So are you saying that good amplifiers, be they SS or tubes, with similar specs, will effectively sound identical with matched (+ / - 0.1db) volume levels?
All I can say is WOW.
Contradicts everything I've heard / learned over the last 30 years or so of being in this hobby.
Perhaps that's why you are getting the responses you are since many folks, like me, would seem to differ strongly with your assertion.
By the by, blind A-B tests cannot tell you about the "nuances" of any particular product but is merely a snapshot in time that may or may not prove to be accurate within the perspective of long term listening satisfaction.
Most folks will generally live with a component for a minimum seven days (if not longer) listening to a variety of material, to fully flesh out the sonic signature of any piece of gear.
GG
PS: It's quite pretentious of you to be giving advice on appropriate manners given the fact that you have posted three times.
PPS: Hi Mark. What happens when you reach zero?
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sleepysurf
Well-known member
I think the reality is that, for the 95+% of the listening public, with low to mid-fi, and even "upper mid-fi" gear, similar powered and spec'd amps (or receivers) will sound pretty much alike. The rest of us, with better gear, and more discerning ears, have learned to appreciate the subtle (or not so subtle) differences between various designs, whether tube or SS. I used to be in the former group, but over the past few years (thanks to this great forum, and others), now count myself as a devout believer in the latter. That being said, I do believe in the scientific method and DBT, combined with longer-term listening when possible. Given the shrinking population of all folks interested in audio (low, mid, or high end) I think we should welcome any non-believers to our fold with open arms, and whenever possible, demo our systems so they'll have a chance to appreciate the nuances and details they never knew they were missing. Some of them might even cross over to the dark side!
Peter, first off....welcome !
If your question above is directed at the Op's thoughts of purchasing a 7k Pioneer AV receiver I concur, but be careful when 'generalizing' ! Would you consider Cary audio and ARC to be good products ?? I do, but only a fool would say they have the same or even similar sonic signatures. Now if amp "A" and amp "B" are designed with like topoligies then one could make the argument.
As for Peter (Whats-his-name) 'The Audio Critic', while I too subscribe to the
rational / engineering explanation most of the time, IMO he's a little too "Full of himself".
Oh.....as for spending the extra $$ on Cd's....make mine vinyl !
have a good weekend !
P
PeterWhite
Guest
I'll believe that people with "more discerning ears" can actually hear these differences when they prove it with double blinded tests.
When they can identify two different amplifiers with good specs, or cables, or the presence or absence of a "Shakti Stone" or piece of amber on their CD player, when they can only hear the sound, and not see which amplifier or cable is in the loop, or the location of the stone or amber, I'll believe it. Until then, I'll believe only that they believe they can hear the difference. And I certainly won't be calling anyone a liar, or a troll.
A good friend of mine casts out demons. She can even see the demons. And she's very good at it. She tells me that every time she orders a demon to leave, it leaves. I don't believe for a minute that she's lying. But I don't ask her for advice on religious matters. ;-)
If anyone here is aware of published results of double blind testing that demonstrates the abilities of people with "more discerning ears" to identify various electronics, cables, stones etc., I'd be very interested in reading the report.
Jungle Jack
Well-known member
Hello,
Peter, welcome as well. I suppose to come to a place where the vast majority of members both hear and believe that sonic differences exist between all links of the audio chain is perceived as being contrarian for contrarian's sake.
I too have read and enjoy the Audio Critic. Many members here use Carver amplification, which the Audio Critic gives good marks to. That being said, I believe it to be possible that perhaps there are measurements that do not yet exist which would/could give insight into why people hear and see what they believe.
Gordon, when we reach zero, the Island and the World are destroyed by a massive pulse cloud thingy.
Cheers,
M.L
Peter, welcome as well. I suppose to come to a place where the vast majority of members both hear and believe that sonic differences exist between all links of the audio chain is perceived as being contrarian for contrarian's sake.
I too have read and enjoy the Audio Critic. Many members here use Carver amplification, which the Audio Critic gives good marks to. That being said, I believe it to be possible that perhaps there are measurements that do not yet exist which would/could give insight into why people hear and see what they believe.
Gordon, when we reach zero, the Island and the World are destroyed by a massive pulse cloud thingy.
Cheers,
M.L
DTB300
Well-known member
And DBT has also proven to have its limitations, so it too is a problem for proving which piece sounds better.
The only amp which sounds better is the one a person likes the best in their home with their testing, their other equipment, and in their room, NOT in a showroom with a bias salesperson, or on the net with so many subjective opinions.
You dropped in out of the blue, and state "....not worry about differences in sound quality between amplifiers with good specifications".
Since when have specs (good or bad) dictated how an amplifier will sound? The HTR's out today look great on paper, but lack in sound quality.
In the forum world when a first time posters drop in out of the blue with age old quotes and statements as their very first post, they are perceived as a troll.
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PeterWhite
Guest
Please show me this proof.
Where's the proof?
I suspect this is true only of those with contrary opinions and a bad attitude. And before I report your rude posting to the moderator, I'll ask you again to stop spewing insults.
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Regarding PW's response, it seems the only factual way to prove if one component is better than the other is DBT.
And the corollary to this logic is if it's not audible in a DBT, it does not exist.
Oh well. I used to believe the world was flat until I saw the Shuttle pictures.
But maybe they were photoshopped and the world really is flat.
GG
And the corollary to this logic is if it's not audible in a DBT, it does not exist.
Oh well. I used to believe the world was flat until I saw the Shuttle pictures.
But maybe they were photoshopped and the world really is flat.
GG
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PeterWhite
Guest
I'll simply point out that Eratosthenes figured out that the earth is spherical some 2300 years ago by using the scientific method.
DTB300
Well-known member
Go out and do some research and read. It has already been discussed many many times.
DBT removes bias not sound differences.
Go out and do some research and read....
Not a contrary opinion, but accepted as fact by many public forums for people that stop by to drop a bomb.
Here I will help you out. MODERATORS, I am being reported
BTW, if you want to continue this thread on DBT, amplifiers, spec, blah, blah, blah start a new thread so we can stop hijacking the OP question.
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DrJRapp
Well-known member
I feel sorry for Peter White...he had no idea what he was getting into when he opened his mouth (well...his finger tips) here and started spewing the anal-retentive gobbledie-gook that the Audio Critic exposes. If you haven't yet, guys, you need to read some of the stuff in that rag....I was ROFL.....laughing mostly at myself, because I used to believe all that before I opened up and really started to listen!
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PeterWhite
Guest
Excuse me but, I was answering the OP's question. The OP did state that he was interested in all opinions. Unfortunately, nobody else seems to be.
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Yes, you do excel at the obvious.
The Goal is Soul,
My advice to you is to ignore the advice of impertinent newbies who jump into your thread spouting off nonsense about all amplifiers sounding the same when they haven't even had the common decency to introduce themselves to the forum and give some background regarding their knowledge/interest in ML, high-end audio, etc., so that we have some basis on which to judge their comments.
I think you would do much better to listen to the senior members of the forum, who have proven their knowledge of and dedication to Martin Logan speakers and high-end audio over the course of years and hundreds if not thousands of posts.
As for the subject of trolls, a useful guide is the age-old maxim: If it walks like a duck and it talks like a duck, then it is probably a duck.
David Matz
Well-known member
PeterWhite,
Have you listened to the equipment yourself, or are you just repeating what others have said?
Over the last few years I have auditioned dozens of sources preamps, and amps at various price points in my home. There are differences - Surprise!!!!
No one knows all of the factors that affect sound. Once all of these factors are understood and shared among the designers, then the equipment will all sound the same. I am not holding my breath. My understanding that a few years ago the Japanese (Yamaha, etc.) were able to engineer equipment
with great measurements, but they sounded like crap.
I know there are some people that believe what you claim. (One of them maybe Roger Sanders, but I am not sure. He claims to have some A/B switch that "equalizes" components.) I personally don't, as I listen and choose for myself.
Nevertheless, please share some more information before making these claims.
P
PeterWhite
Guest
David Matz,
What a delightfully insulting question! Thanks for asking. Yes indeed, I've been listening to "equipment" since I bought my first turntable (an AR) in 1969 to use with an old Lang & Taylor console that had been languishing in the basement. My father had a shop that sold them in the 50s. I used to accept on faith that some amps sounded better than others, though I was never able to hear the differences myself. BGW, Radford and Quad were alleged to have exquisite sound quality, far better than the 7c and 8b I picked up used a year later.
It was perhaps 1980 when I first heard the news that the wires we'd all been using to connect tuners and pre-amps were junk and that to get really good sound, you needed these new expensive wires. I thought that was interesting, so I took a phono cable and plugged it into a tape monitor loop, put on a well recorded record and spent a half hour or so switching the cable in and out of the circuit. If that cheap phono cable was degrading the sound, you might think it would have been obvious, but there was no difference at all.
I've never done a proper double blind test comparing amps. However, I did have a very interesting experience a few years back. I'd always been happy with my Spendor BC1 speakers. But a friend suggested a try some Aerius Is. He said they were much better than the Spendors. So I waltzed on down to the nearest shop that sold them and brought home a demo pair. I hooked them up, put on a good CD and listened. Yup, they sounded much better than my then twenty year old Spendors. Everything was better, imaging, detail, bass, the works. I was convinced! Then I thought, hmmm, just a minute. So I grabbed another amp and set up a A/B so I could switch between the Spendors and the MLs quickly while matching levels as closely as I could.
Indeed, the Aerius speakers were better than the Spendors. They had just a tad more detail, and the bass was a hair better. The one thing that was clearly better was vocals, since, without the front baffle, there were no reflections with the MLs.
But the huge differences I thought I had heard when I first set up the MLs were either gone or now only very subtle. And while vocals were better with the MLs, it wasn't enough of an improvement to justify the expense. The more I compared them, the more I realized that while the MLs were better, they would do next to nothing to increase my enjoyment of the music. So they went back to the shop. My initial impression was probably due to the fact that when I had last listened to that CD using the Spendors, I was just listening to the music. Now, auditioning the martin Logans, I was listening to the sound, trying to hear any differences that might be there.
In fact, every time I listen to a piece of music I hear something new. It's easy to fool oneself into thinking that the new thing you just heard is due to the new speaker or that new amp or cable, when it's just the fact that you're trying to hear something new.
It was only recently, when we decided to set up a surround sound system for movies that I decided to replace the Spendors, since they simply won't handle the random explosions and various sound effects in movies if you play them at realistic volume levels. Since I knew the MLs sounded so much like the Spendors, while being much more efficient and far more robust, I bought the Vistas without even auditioning them.
I must say I'm surprised at the nastiness of this group. You're much like religious fanatics, appalled that anyone should question the group dogma. Too bad.
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