Has anyone moved from the ML Ethos to the 11A?

[user 10615]

Okay, so I was thinking of trying Active ATC's but each time I listen through my ML's they are great. How much of an improvement will I find if I consider the 11A's?

 

[jtucker]

I moved up from Ethos to Montis a while back. Big improvement. I would expect the 11A's to be even more so with room correction.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

G'day mate, greetings from down unda Melb.

Yes, the ESL 11A's (Impression) will definitely make a much much bigger "Impression!" The Ethos are superb value for money, there's no doubt about it. They were part of ML's Reserve Line series of hybrid stats. Of course the top of the Reserve line was the Summit-X and it was a marvellous stat-hybrid. I had the Ethos for about a year then moved on towards the Montis and higher end hybrids, finally settled with CLX's.

The Impression, Expression and Renaissance are now part of ML's Masterpiece line. These are quite different in both the design of the bass drivers, the cabinets, plus higher powered Class D amps, and also a redesign on the stat panel itself, now incorporating their latest generation of Blade tech. The Blade tech is even thinner and more rigid, ML still uses special carbon alloys and the cabinets housing the bass drivers are fully braced and far more rigid than anything found in their previous Reserve line.

Although all this is well and good, it doesn't come cheap. These are priced at varying points and will suit most budgets, starting with the passive design of the Classic ESL 9. So the question is, if you are truly satisfied with the Ethos? Is the Ethos providing you with everything you're after? Or at least 95% of what you want... it's hard to achieve 100%.
If the Ethos is providing everything you're looking for in reproduced music then why change? Is there something lacking... in which case then perhaps is it the source gear or the amplifiers you're using, maybe it's not the Ethos...
Considering another more expensive speaker must meet all the demands and criteria you're looking for, not just because it's a newer model and it costs more. That's not a rationale way of upgrading.

To answer your question, the 11A's are quite a radical change compared to the Ethos and are superior in every aspect. However, you have to keep in mind, upgrading to this level will also include upgrades on the entire system, not just the speakers. The source gear will need to be considered, the amplifiers will be in question including cables and accessories and the vicious cycle begins...

So unless you're prepared to go the extra mile and get ready in spending / upgrading the whole system, there's really no point in just upgrading to 11A's. They are truly at the top level of ML hybrids, that's why they're referred to as "Masterpiece." Once you audition one you'll know what I'm referring to then have a listen to the same 11A's with some real SOTA gear, and you'll be very surprised as to how much more this Masterpiece line can deliver.

The gear I auditioned the entire Masterpiece series was with the following amplifiers over a period of 3 years;
Solid state amps-
Dartzeel
Pass Labs
Vitus
Class'e Delta
Bricasti
Goldmund
Plinius

Tube amps-
Audio Research, Conrad johnson, VAC, VTL, Manley Labs, Jadis, Sonic Frontiers (discontinued), Ayon and Audio Note.

These were the ones that really enhanced the performance of the Masterpiece line at all levels, not just in terms of performance and dynamics but in absolute musical engagement. These are quite expensive gear but fully worth it and something to experience. This list is definitely NOT the ultimate, there's no such thing! It doesn't necessarily mean that only these amplifiers will work best and it's a must to have them, certainly not!

The only reason I listed them is to show that the Masterpiece line can be further elevated by using such gear, and they drive these hybrids to their full potential. It just goes to show how good they really are!

So, yes the 11A's are fabulous but just make sure your other gear is up to par...
Just my 50cts worth... hope that helps.
Cheers, RJ

 

[PVMIKE]

to big Dog RJ which Manley amps did you use with the 11 A's I have a pair of those speakers and have been considering Manley for awhile now. Would describe the sound they produced. I'm currently using a Parasound JC5

 

[Big Dog RJ]

to big Dog RJ which Manley amps did you use with the 11 A's I have a pair of those speakers and have been considering Manley for awhile now. Would describe the sound they produced. I'm currently using a Parasound JC5

My journey with Manley Labs started way back with the VTL designs, where Manley gear was made at the original VTL factory. Those were the Manley Ref350"s designers reference series by David Manley himself. Then moved on to the newer designs VTL Wotans driving Apogee Diva's then onto the Manley Neo 250's driving Maggie's (several versions of the MG3 series).

The auditions I tried out with the 11A's were on two models: the Snapper monoblocks and the Neo 250's. The Mahi monoblocks are also equally good but don't have the same current nor voltage capacity as the larger amplifiers. Larger the tube amp, larger is everything at all levels- power, current, voltage and the trannies. All Manley gear is made at the highest standards and they are rock solid! Their tube amps can go 24/7 non-stop without flinching one bit, and they're designed in this manner.

From the Mahi to the Snapper, I found the musicality of the EL34's to be supreme, as EL34's are know for, especially in the midband. It has a very palpable midrange. However, on the Neo 250's and Neo 500's, they use the KT90 tubes. These are much more robust and powerful, yet have all the virtues of the EL34 midrange, so after getting used to KT90's, I really didn't miss the EL34's.

You would think that lower powered tube amps would drive the stat panels quite easily, since the bass is powered in the 11A's. Low to mid power on tubes works fine, provided your room is small to average. I've used ARC and CJ 60w tube amps with ML hybrids, no issues. So in this case either the Mahi or the Snapper amps would be fine.

However, the moment your room gets bigger, and you would like to have that sort of live effect in your living room, that full 3D soundstage depth and sheer dynamics with an effortless sense of drive and control on the stats, the larger tubes amps are far ahead. I also noticed, although the bass is powered, using higher power (current & voltage) on the stats from larger tube amps sends a stronger bass signal to the powered section, and you can actually hear more bass layering and LF definition is enhanced.

I ended up using Conrad johnson 125w tube monoblocks that have been modded to deliver a higher Class A bias of 60w before it switches into Class AB at 150w if need be. It drives my CLX's with full authority and total grip on the stats, so no issues with this moderate power from tube amps either.

ARC, CJ, VTL, Manley Labs and VAC are really well built and have rock solid power supplies. They don't flinch under stress and their high voltages are ideal for stats. So either of these makes are super fine. If you wanted to go at a higher level, there's always Jadis and Aries Ceret tube gear, which costs a fortune but the level of performance is just extraordinary! These are at the highest level I've ever heard but my humble finances can't afford it.

Hope that helps! Merry Xmas!
Cheers, RJ

 

[Lightloopy]

To PVMike,

Since you are currently using SS gear you have to decide if the tube world is for you.

After that- I agree with Big Dog in trying out high watt tube amps with these stats.

Big Dog RJ is right on. The 11A's are an amazing speaker (once broken in) and highly revealing. I also have felt they seem to respond to large watt numbers not for loudness but for such a sense of ease. I used VTL MB 250 ( 225 W triode) for 12 years until they started having issues. I sold them to a friend who is able to maintain them and now he absolutely loves them with my old SL3's. I have since been using a Mcintosh MC1502 which has a highly accurate uncolored sound and very happy with them. Recently I borrowed the VTL's back and was in love with the liquidity and organic nature of these amps. My wife had an interesting description...." These amps photoshop the sound in a nice way compared to the Macs" followed by "you are all nuts".

So..a pair of VTL MB450's Series 1 showed up in the area and after swearing I would not get another pair of old amps I picked them up. And amazing they are. We'll see how it goes.....at least if they break I don't go into withdrawal.

Agree with RJ , even though lower powered amps work with the Masterpiece line something magical happens with these high powered tube amps and the stats.

Enjoy

 

[user 10615]

G'day mate, greetings from down unda Melb.

Yes, the ESL 11A's (Impression) will definitely make a much much bigger "Impression!" The Ethos are superb value for money, there's no doubt about it. They were part of ML's Reserve Line series of hybrid stats. Of course the top of the Reserve line was the Summit-X and it was a marvellous stat-hybrid. I had the Ethos for about a year then moved on towards the Montis and higher end hybrids, finally settled with CLX's.

The Impression, Expression and Renaissance are now part of ML's Masterpiece line. These are quite different in both the design of the bass drivers, the cabinets, plus higher powered Class D amps, and also a redesign on the stat panel itself, now incorporating their latest generation of Blade tech. The Blade tech is even thinner and more rigid, ML still uses special carbon alloys and the cabinets housing the bass drivers are fully braced and far more rigid than anything found in their previous Reserve line.

Although all this is well and good, it doesn't come cheap. These are priced at varying points and will suit most budgets, starting with the passive design of the Classic ESL 9. So the question is, if you are truly satisfied with the Ethos? Is the Ethos providing you with everything you're after? Or at least 95% of what you want... it's hard to achieve 100%.
If the Ethos is providing everything you're looking for in reproduced music then why change? Is there something lacking... in which case then perhaps is it the source gear or the amplifiers you're using, maybe it's not the Ethos...
Considering another more expensive speaker must meet all the demands and criteria you're looking for, not just because it's a newer model and it costs more. That's not a rationale way of upgrading.

To answer your question, the 11A's are quite a radical change compared to the Ethos and are superior in every aspect. However, you have to keep in mind, upgrading to this level will also include upgrades on the entire system, not just the speakers. The source gear will need to be considered, the amplifiers will be in question including cables and accessories and the vicious cycle begins...

So unless you're prepared to go the extra mile and get ready in spending / upgrading the whole system, there's really no point in just upgrading to 11A's. They are truly at the top level of ML hybrids, that's why they're referred to as "Masterpiece." Once you audition one you'll know what I'm referring to then have a listen to the same 11A's with some real SOTA gear, and you'll be very surprised as to how much more this Masterpiece line can deliver.

The gear I auditioned the entire Masterpiece series was with the following amplifiers over a period of 3 years;
Solid state amps-
Dartzeel
Pass Labs
Vitus
Class'e Delta
Bricasti
Goldmund
Plinius

Tube amps-
Audio Research, Conrad johnson, VAC, VTL, Manley Labs, Jadis, Sonic Frontiers (discontinued), Ayon and Audio Note.

These were the ones that really enhanced the performance of the Masterpiece line at all levels, not just in terms of performance and dynamics but in absolute musical engagement. These are quite expensive gear but fully worth it and something to experience. This list is definitely NOT the ultimate, there's no such thing! It doesn't necessarily mean that only these amplifiers will work best and it's a must to have them, certainly not!

The only reason I listed them is to show that the Masterpiece line can be further elevated by using such gear, and they drive these hybrids to their full potential. It just goes to show how good they really are!

So, yes the 11A's are fabulous but just make sure your other gear is up to par...
Just my 50cts worth... hope that helps.
Cheers, RJ

Thanks Big Dog RJ definitely good food for thought, I have found some real surprises in equipment changes in the past couple of years. My Whest Two.2 phono stage opened up my vinyl sound and the ART 9XA cartridge even better. Changed my Streamer and am pleased it matches what the "fuss" is about the Naim range its from and get the item it replaced had brilliant reviews. Probably the biggest surprise was I am now on my second passive preamp, the second because it has remote control and it's wow, just wonder how good the transformer type passives are? Each time the the Ethos just sound better and better one of the reasons they are still in place. Pretty sure my cables would be worthy of the 11A's not sure about my Sanders Magtech power amp although, it, as the Ethos just improves with changes up the line. My next step I think is to try and audition the 11A's V ATC Active 50's as I have always wanted to try the ATC's. One advantage of the Active ATC's is they're built in amps and free Hernia support for lifting then (just kidding) So, need to do some auditioning.

 

[Dctom]

Okay, so I was thinking of trying Active ATC's but each time I listen through my ML's they are great. How much of an improvement will I find if I consider the 11A's?

I used ATCs for about 20 years, they are great speakers, I had the classic active 50s then anniversary 50s, then anniversary 100s. the latter were in a dedicated room with 2 big subs and acoustic treatment. Have not really heard better, tremendous dynamics, scale, image etc. Like ML they need a well set up v low distortion source otherwise they can sound bright.
I moved a year or so ago for family reasons and so had to sell the system I had spent 20yrs building
However, as I am sure you are wondering, that is where ML came in. I had always had an interest in electrostatics the place I was moving to did not have the option of a neighbour free, dedicated room. So I started exploring speakers that were cited as working well at lower volumes. Hence the impression 11A, some room correction was an added bonus. The ATCs are pretty neutral and the 11A s are similar but more so. They can sound more realistic than ATC on some material and the upper base is more detailed with ARC set up. I am very happy with the sound they produce after some months of running in and adjustment.
I did find they had some brightness and this has been ameliorated with ISOacoustic Gaia footers.

 

[user 10615]

I used ATCs for about 20 years, they are great speakers, I had the classic active 50s then anniversary 50s, then anniversary 100s. the latter were in a dedicated room with 2 big subs and acoustic treatment. Have not really heard better, tremendous dynamics, scale, image etc. Like ML they need a well set up v low distortion source otherwise they can sound bright.
I moved a year or so ago for family reasons and so had to sell the system I had spent 20yrs building
However, as I am sure you are wondering, that is where ML came in. I had always had an interest in electrostatics the place I was moving to did not have the option of a neighbour free, dedicated room. So I started exploring speakers that were cited as working well at lower volumes. Hence the impression 11A, some room correction was an added bonus. The ATCs are pretty neutral and the 11A s are similar but more so. They can sound more realistic than ATC on some material and the upper base is more detailed with ARC set up. I am very happy with the sound they produce after some months of running in and adjustment.
I did find they had some brightness and this has been ameliorated with ISOacoustic Gaia footers.

Thanks for the reply, well from 100's to 11A's is certainly a change. At last my local ATC dealer has just got their Active 50's up for demonstration again but poor timing due to Dog sitting duties and then a Hip replacement on the 11th I'll not get in for a while. The daft thing is the Ethos are great, especially in my small room, so there is no rush I just want to make sure there is not more to be heard and enjoyed and ATC's reviews have always appealed. I really should have a listen to 11A's as well to see how much they are diiffer/improve over my Ethos.