Getting TRUE SACD sound.

[treitz3]

The following is a PM from a member who has PM's blocked, so I couldn't respond. Here is the PM and my response. His name has been omitted for privacy reasons....

Hi,

interesting comments... How can one tell if their SACD player down mixes? Surely they don't advertise that on the box. I'm wanting to get a universal player this time around and was considering this one: http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/productdetail.html?CNTID=451766&CTID=5001800

thanks!
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"Most inexpensive SACD/CD players and universal players down mix the SACD (DSD) signal to PCM, which will not allow you to really hear what SACD is all about."

I am still trying to find out whether or not my Denon dvd-2910 is giving me true SACD or not. It's a universal as well. The technology is so advanced that not many folks really understand it all. I am just going to call and talk with three or four different departments with Denon to see if they all say the same thing, or just contradict themselves.

Good question. We may want to post this question regarding both players on this forum and others as well just to see if we get the same answers.

For me, when I hit the source direct button, it seems as if I am getting true SACD, but I don't want to rely on what I think, I want to know. Had a chance to hear a Musical Fidelity KW player and A/B this past weekend, but the speakers were not in the best location/acoustics....and I ran out of time, so I opted not to A/B.

This is why get together's are so important. To A/B something that we can't afford to do by ourselves. Grrr.

 

[benleeys]

Conversion of DSD signals to PCM is required by the player in order to take advantage of its internal bass management system. However, the Source Direct feature in the Denon player defeats the conversion process with a corresponding increase in output volume of about 15dB when playing SACDs.

Having said that, the bass management feature in a player is useful for those systems which do not employ true full range speakers for all channels and need to divert low frequencies away from the 'Small" speakers (center, rears) to the sub(s).

I am using the Denon 5910 and Summits for only the front. So to avoid potential damage to the Stage and Passage used for the other channels, I have no choice but to set the Source Direct off.

 

[magnaman]

sacd sound

Interested in both the above. I've just acquired a Denon 3910, Vistas and Cinema i and want to see what improvement SACD gives. I've currently got an optical digital link only. Will using analog RCA cables and source direct give much of an improvement in quality?

I'm also a little puzzled by the comment about setting source direct to protect the other speakers. Is this due to the increased output levels? With no sub (yet) I'm running everything full size so this is presumably not an issue

 

[Rich]

On Denon's website, the specs for the 5910 say that it has Burr Brown PCM-1792 DACs, but say nothing about DSD Processing chips, so I would have to assume that this player downconverts DSD to PCM whether or not you run it source direct. I would pretty much assume any player downconverts unless they specifically tout native DSD processing ability. Manufacturers know this is important enough to advertise if they have it (and to avoid talking about if they don't).

 

[benleeys]

I've currently got an optical digital link only. Will using analog RCA cables and source direct give much of an improvement in quality?

I'm also a little puzzled by the comment about setting source direct to protect the other speakers. Is this due to the increased output levels? With no sub (yet) I'm running everything full size so this is presumably not an issue

As far as I am aware of, only IEEE-1394 outputs carry DSD signals, so unless you are using such an output, you have little choice but to use RCA analog output for SACD.

As regards the potential speaker damage due to "Large" settings for non-full range speakers, I believe there's a warning somewhere from ML themselves. It comes from the processor attempting to drive the speaker beyond its rated frequency range.

 

[benleeys]

On Denon's website, the specs for the 5910 say that it has Burr Brown PCM-1792 DACs, but say nothing about DSD Processing chips, so I would have to assume that this player downconverts DSD to PCM whether or not you run it source direct. I would pretty much assume any player downconverts unless they specifically tout native DSD processing ability. Manufacturers know this is important enough to advertise if they have it (and to avoid talking about if they don't).

If Source Direct is set to on, output bypasses conversion to PCM before analog.

 

[magnaman]

Thanks for the quick response Beenlys. I did not make myself clear about the SACD question, it was more an "is SACD analogue quality, with source direct, noticeably better than digital CD quality" question. Your experience with Denon and MR, though of better quality than mine, was of interest

 

[Audioseduction]

Here is a bullet of one of the specs of my Esoteric DV-50s. There is also a blue LED that lights up when playing in this mode. Everytime I play a SACD it comes on meaning DSD playback and no PCM conversion.

• Native DSD playback without PCM conversion

 

[David Matz]

The Ayre player has SACD light up in red when an SACD or a hybrid disc is inserted.

 

[Audioseduction]

The Ayre player has SACD light up in red when an SACD or a hybrid disc is inserted.

LED means playing a SACD or hybrid? Means on how it's playing or what?

 

[risabet]

The DVD-2910 manipulates DSD signals in the native format. No conversion to PCM is ever performed. The source direct button turns off all of the digital/video, except the D/A, circuitry in the player for a more open sound IMO. Denon makes a big deal that their players don't convert DSD to PCM.

 

[risabet]

Interested in both the above. I've just acquired a Denon 3910, Vistas and Cinema i and want to see what improvement SACD gives. I've currently got an optical digital link only. Will using analog RCA cables and source direct give much of an improvement in quality?

I'm also a little puzzled by the comment about setting source direct to protect the other speakers. Is this due to the increased output levels? With no sub (yet) I'm running everything full size so this is presumably not an issue

You really don't have a choice, neither SACD or DVD-A will output a digital signal. By design they only output an analog signal.

 

[Rich]

The DVD-2910 manipulates DSD signals in the native format. No conversion to PCM is ever performed. The source direct button turns off all of the digital/video, except the D/A, circuitry in the player for a more open sound IMO. Denon makes a big deal that their players don't convert DSD to PCM.

Thanks for the correction, Risabet. I wasn't able to find any mention of native DSD processing on their website, so I don't guess they make that big of a deal about it. But I was able to look up some specs on the DAC they use and it is capable of natively processing DSD.

 

[treitz3]

I haven't read the replies yet, but thank you....

OK, finally got time to call Denon Tech support and concerning the DVD-2910 on today's call, [will call back 2 more times just to make damn sure, hehe] the gentleman said that I will not get true SACD on two channel analog outs. [which is where I have it hooked up to]

The player does offer true SACD and not a down mix, however, you have to go through the 6-channel [as he called it....5.1 actually] analog. Then, by using the remote which I don't have, set to 2 channel SACD, then select the source direct button until all lights and the screen goes off [with the exception of the green light around the power button]....THEN you have true SACD.

When I asked him how much a remote control was, he put me on hold for a minute or two, got back on the horn and told me that he had one in inventory and that he would send me one at no charge, that I should have it within the next couple of days. Very impressive. I bought the unit as a discontinued floor model for 200 bucks plus tax and now they give me a free remote AND I find out I'm getting true SACD. I'm happy.

Being skeptical, I will call again. As soon as I hear the same response from 3 different folks that know there sheite, then I'll accept the fact that I have true SACD and then I can take my time selecting/researching a dedicated SACD player.

OK, now I will read the replies.......

 

[treitz3]

Will using analog RCA cables and source direct give much of an improvement in quality?

Yes, I can verify that. A nice improvement too.

 

[Beat_Dominator]

I'd go with what the tech support guy said. the 2-ch outs would most likely be connected just to the pcm-based dacs, burr-brown or whatever they might be.

 

[benleeys]

Thanks for the correction, Risabet. I wasn't able to find any mention of native DSD processing on their website, so I don't guess they make that big of a deal about it. But I was able to look up some specs on the DAC they use and it is capable of natively processing DSD.

Rich,

Risabet was refering to the 2910.

On the 5910, the Direct Source setting is via the setup menu. That controls the DSD/PCM processing as advised earlier. The Pure Direct mode setting is via a button on the front panel. This gives you a choice of shutting down the video and/or audio output and/or frontal display.

Confusing, isn't it?

 

[Rich]

Confusing, isn't it?

Yes, it is. My main point was that if they offer native DSD processing of SACDs, why don't they advertise that on their website? Looking at the descriptions of their players, I couldn't find any mention of native DSD processing. Just seems like they would know that is an important enough feature to advertise.

 

[benleeys]

Yes, it is. My main point was that if they offer native DSD processing of SACDs, why don't they advertise that on their website? Looking at the descriptions of their players, I couldn't find any mention of native DSD processing. Just seems like they would know that is an important enough feature to advertise.

Rich,

Just found something that might help your research.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_2/denon-dvd-5910-dvd-player-4-2005-part-2.html

 

[David Matz]

LED means playing a SACD or hybrid? Means on how it's playing or what?

According to Ayre, it just uses the actual DSD without any conversion. And the sound is to die for.