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Scottk

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Good morning to the Community! I’m in a sort of quandary and am hoping for some keen advice. I have a pair of 11As and am shopping for a new amplifier for them. I have it narrowed down to the Bob Carver 350 and the PS Audio BHK 300. What’s the verdict?
Many thanks for your time and input! It is most sincerely appreciated!
 
If you can audition the Carver 350 with some ML's I am truly interested in your thoughts on it! That amp is high on my list of "need to hear". But I gotta believe that it's up to task from what I know about it.

Because I'm nuts and I usually think things can be improved, to that end I've auditioned some amps with ML speakers elsewhere and my 13A's in particular but so far nothing has beaten my Krell. The other amps fall down at higher SPL, but the Krell keeps saying "I'll give you more". So I'm also keen on knowing more about other amps with our speakers mainly because I am interested in monos.
 
Scott, to each his own but for me I'd want nothing to do with dealing with a dozen KT-120's (Carver's 350's)
 
Scott,
The big debate still runs. Tube vs Solid State. This is a matter of liking. The tube has a sweetness that SS lacks. Also, to my ears, the stage presentation has more 3D presentation, and this is because the highs are not too incisive. The brightness is there on tubes, but not as SS. Now, to my ears, my liking is tubes. The harmonic texture, the air between the musical instruments, the size of them, the lack of throat soreness at the voices, this is my liking and I am a KT-120 user on my Conrad Johnson power amp. But keep in mind that this is my liking and not necessary must be yours. There is a maintenance that you have to do with tubes, that you do not need on SS.

I am a KT-120 user, and I have over two years of every day use, and no complaint at all. The give a lot of pure high quality sound, driving my CLXs. Never had an issue or feel that I have a lack of something. Just enjoying my music and never before! I do believe that Conrad Johnson is another brand that you can put into your consideration. This is pure magic sound!

Try to listen to both. SS has better. control for bass, but you do not need this, because you are not going to drive your speakers with SS. In your 11s, there are two digital power amps on each speaker, driving the woofers. The finial advise is: trust your ears. They are your final judges and your liking. Play the music that you like most. Take it in a flash drive with you. Take strings, winds, percussion and doublebass. Put solo music, voices. Female are my favorite, because are easier to find the natural voice register than the male.

Happy listening!
 
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I get what twitch54 is saying, tubes can be more fussy than solid state (just a guess twitch54). However, I happen to be a fan of Carver 350 specifically because the tubes run cool to the touch and the amps allow balanced connection, which for me is appealing due to the long run back to the pre and sources. I've tried RCA cables with my setup and it greatly changes the character of the amp being used, like Herron Audio monos where the treble was gone and bass was greatly exaggerated. I'm also a fan because the two setups I've heard sounded great, very much like roberto described, albeit connected to speakers other than ML.
 
ttocs,

Are you a tube user? Why are you clamming that? I have being using tubes since long time by now...over 30 years. Also, having an electronic workshop where I do service all most common brands, the damage when a transistor fails produces a more catastrophic effect and damage than a blown tube. If you have a blown tube, you just change it, user can do this with no problem...now servicing SS is tough. Just my 2 cents.
 
ttocs,

Are you a tube user? Why are you clamming that? I have being using tubes since long time by now...over 30 years. Also, having an electronic workshop where I do service all most common brands, the damage when a transistor fails produces a more catastrophic effect and damage than a blown tube. If you have a blown tube, you just change it, user can do this with no problem...now servicing SS is tough. Just my 2 cents.

First off, I know your experience is worth more than 2 cents. I have read many posts of yours and admire and respect the knowledge and experience you impart on this forum.

The only tube amps I currently own are for guitar and range in date of manufacture from 1951 to 1983, and one from a couple years ago. Love 'em.

I WANT to find out what tubes are like for my ML's in my system, which is why I've been auditioning some lately and trying to find a direction I'd like to move toward design-wise which works with my setup. Some club friends are letting me borrow some tube amps to try out in weeks to come so I'm looking forward to that. I don't want to use up the valuable time of tube amp dealers until I have a better grasp of what I really want. So I ask a lot of bumbling questions and seek the opinions of others to gain the knowledge I want to have with which I may come to a decision.

When I use the word "fussy", I mean that depending on the amp in question, tubes can be driven hard and hot, or easy and cool (for tubes), or something in-between. An amp which drives tubes hard can mean changing tubes more often. Either way, I'm not suggesting at all that tubes aren't worth the effort, quite the contrary. If I didn't think they were worth the effort I wouldn't be expending so much time learning about them as they relate to stereo systems. The big wrinkle for me has been how to go about developing a successful marriage of tubes and my ML Expressions.
 
Did you get a chance to hear the Luxman m900u in your search? I recently demoed the Luxman m900u with MLs and it was hands down one of the best sounding amps I have heard for the price point. Combined sweets crisp highs, warmth, and tight bass control. Also heard the BHK 300’s and felt a single m900u outperformed them, though this totally a preference thing since the BHKs were great.

The important part for me was to hear these amps with the ML speakers I had (11As). Since ML electrostats tend to be on the warmer side, crisper highs really work well for my listening preference. I ended up ordering the luxman 509X for the time being because of space and budget to replace my MC452, but will be upgrading to m900u and matching c900u down the road.
 
ttocs,

Everything is a matter of liking. There is no better...a reason why I am always stating: this is my liking and not necessary yours. What I want you to know, is that you are repeating myths regarding tubes. I worked here in Costa Rica as an electronic engineer assistant to the service department for a broadcast TV station with the name TELETICA long time ago, circa 1975 to 1980. I did service the repeaters, three units on channel 5, then channel 11, and 12. Because Costa Rica is surrounded by mountains, we were able to use channel 5 (3 repeaters) at different locations without the problem of signal interact from the same frequency operation. The transmitters were all tubes. I had to keep a bandwidth of 4 MHz between the audio carrier and the video carrier. These transmitters were not very accurate and the weather did affect their performance, so at least once a month, they must be re-calibrated. On that period of time, I never changed a tube!!! and their operation was 24 hours every day!!!. Of course, part of the maintenance was to measure all tubes. All did measure good!. Now about tubes in audio...what matter for us.

On these days, the sensitivity of ML electrostatic speaker is very high. You do not need a lot of power to drive them at a real life unplugged music, this is for winds, strings a percussion music. The dynamics are reproduced with outstanding clarity and precision. Of course, still is not the real thing. Why? Because we are using linear signal on linear devices, and the musical instruments are logarithmic. Everybody talks about the dB, but no one talks about the SABIN.

The design of the tube amps on these days, using better components like teflon caps, metal foil resistors and using the SS regulators to bias the tubes is what we have. Why is this? If you read regarding the harmonic texture of the tube vs SS, the tube harmonic distortion is even, and SS is odd. Our ears detect the odd distortion faster than the even distortion. Even distortion makes to a piano to sound like that particular piano, or a guitar or any musical instrument. The even distortion is what makes my voice to sound like Roberto. Odd distortion makes to sound Roberto odd. I hope you can understand what I am trying to explain. Again, some of us like tubes, and other like SS. And this is right! We deserve what we like, we are paying for it, right? But myths are things that are very general and can be wrong. As an example, the KT-120 supposed to be OK for 2000 hours. If you use a proper SPL and will not drive them to a clipping level, you can extend their span life for 20 years or more. So, no big deal with bad tubes. I have to say that when you have a bad channel, on tube is very evident.

There are a lot of explanations to who is right or wrong. What I say is: trust what you like. Your ears will tell. They are the final judges. Sound quality is like food. I love this analogy. You might like your food with garlic and onion. Some of us might hate that kind of food. If you do a search of what the musicians sound like. Usually, they love tubes! The soft clipping of the signal is one thing, and the quality of the sound. There is a kind of sweetness on tubes that the transistors lacks...but again, this is a matter of liking. Both media on these days are in the same boat! Same thing. Same seek to reproduce the real world. I have a language barrier. I wish that I could express myself better...but I can not. If I sound rude or trying to impose myself, this is not my intention. If I did, please excuse me!
 
Good morning to the Community! I’m in a sort of quandary and am hoping for some keen advice. I have a pair of 11As and am shopping for a new amplifier for them. I have it narrowed down to the Bob Carver 350 and the PS Audio BHK 300. What’s the verdict?
Many thanks for your time and input! It is most sincerely appreciated!

For those that may not know , the BHKs have a tube input stage. 2 tubes per mono.

I have heard both in completely different applications. The carvers were driving the carver amazing ribbons which sounded great. The bhk monos were driving the new ps audio an3s which have a powered woofer section. Aren’t the bhk monos more pricey? The bhk is supposed to be ‘musical’ or tube like. It’s a tough call. What’s your preamp?
 
Krell all the way. I have 3 of them and they all sound better than anything else I have tried. You really need an amplifier that doubles in power when the ohms drop down. Use a preamp that suits you, and it can be a tube preamp. But the amp for ESLs need to be able to drop down to 2 ohms or better. Krell has their new XD models now, and the older ones of that series can be upgraded to XD from Krell. So you can get a good deal on a used Krell, and get the upgrade. I have Vintage Krell amps that have been recapped to new condition. You can get them recapped at High Performance Stereo dot com. If you find a Vintage Krell, they will also recap them for a price. SS amp and preamp of your choice. Pass Labs sound different than Krell. Too much syrup for my liking. I paid just under $3,000 for my latest Krell. It's a KSA-200s. It will put out 500w/ch with my Montis. Then I have 2 REL S3 subs hooked up to the speaker outputs of the Krell. Sounds quite good. I use an Audio Alchemy DDP-1 DAC/Preamp combo with the Krell, along with a Schiit Freya Tube preamp. The Schiit Freya has a wide open mode and I can choose from 3 output settings (Passive, JFET, and Tube mode). It's a miracle, I tell ya. I run the Tube Mode most of the time, but Passive Mode gives me more transparent sound, which is good for some recordings. But the flexibility of having remote control of Tubes or Passive is something that usually isn't available. Love the Montis. I think it is one of the best models Martin Logan has ever made. Cheers
 
Scott, to each his own but for me I'd want nothing to do with dealing with a dozen KT-120's (Carver's 350's)

Dave makes a very valid point. If you are going to own tube equipment go into it with the understanding that there is the cost tubes carry going forward.
That said, for those of us that love the sound of tubes I would pick the Carvers, no doubt.
 
Good morning to the Community! I’m in a sort of quandary and am hoping for some keen advice. I have a pair of 11As and am shopping for a new amplifier for them. I have it narrowed down to the Bob Carver 350 and the PS Audio BHK 300. What’s the verdict?
Many thanks for your time and input! It is most sincerely appreciated!

Do you really want to spend that much on powering 11As? The amp will cost more than a pair of 11As. For your total budget, surely you'd be better off with better speakers (13As maybe) and a somewhat less crazy priced amp.

Have you auditioned the Sanders Magtech? It's about $5000 (with MLO membership) and designed specifically to power ELS speakers. Sanders will send one to you free of postage charges for you to audition over a month or so and you can return it (paid for by Sanders) if you don't like it. You can't lose , but you could save yourself $10K!

Since I moved away from tubes, I now listen to much more music. I always considered the running costs (in terms of valve life) and the environmental impact of someone somewhere burning coal (if Trump has his way) to provide the electricity to power my tube amps before I switched on my 845 monos. Some people (would you believe it) leave their tube amps on 24/7. How totally irresponsible!
 
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ttocs - I love the BHK monoblocks! Straight out of the box they sounded terrific and they seem to get a bit better each day. Highly recommended!!
 
Krell all the way. I have 3 of them and they all sound better than anything else I have tried. You really need an amplifier that doubles in power when the ohms drop down. Use a preamp that suits you, and it can be a tube preamp. But the amp for ESLs need to be able to drop down to 2 ohms or better. Krell has their new XD models now, and the older ones of that series can be upgraded to XD from Krell. So you can get a good deal on a used Krell, and get the upgrade. I have Vintage Krell amps that have been recapped to new condition. You can get them recapped at High Performance Stereo dot com. If you find a Vintage Krell, they will also recap them for a price. SS amp and preamp of your choice. Pass Labs sound different than Krell. Too much syrup for my liking[/SIZE]. I paid just under $3,000 for my latest Krell. It's a KSA-200s. It will put out 500w/ch with my Montis. Then I have 2 REL S3 subs hooked up to the speaker outputs of the Krell. Sounds quite good. I use an Audio Alchemy DDP-1 DAC/Preamp combo with the Krell, along with a Schiit Freya Tube preamp. The Schiit Freya has a wide open mode and I can choose from 3 output settings (Passive, JFET, and Tube mode). It's a miracle, I tell ya. I run the Tube Mode most of the time, but Passive Mode gives me more transparent sound, which is good for some recordings. But the flexibility of having remote control of Tubes or Passive is something that usually isn't available. Love the Montis. I think it is one of the best models Martin Logan has ever made. Cheers



Ummmm, tasty Pass syrup. Give me some more, please. Until I upgraded to Pass XA30.8, I found some of my music collection bright with low texture and body. The Pass has made the music enjoyable without sounding dull. Papa Pass and his team know what they are doing.:cool:
 
Summits/help

ttocs,

Everything is a matter of liking. There is no better...a reason why I am always stating: this is my liking and not necessary yours. What I want you to know, is that you are repeating myths regarding tubes. I worked here in Costa Rica as an electronic engineer assistant to the service department for a broadcast TV station with the name TELETICA long time ago, circa 1975 to 1980. I did service the repeaters, three units on channel 5, then channel 11, and 12. Because Costa Rica is surrounded by mountains, we were able to use channel 5 (3 repeaters) at different locations without the problem of signal interact from the same frequency operation. The transmitters were all tubes. I had to keep a bandwidth of 4 MHz between the audio carrier and the video carrier. These transmitters were not very accurate and the weather did affect their performance, so at least once a month, they must be re-calibrated. On that period of time, I never changed a tube!!! and their operation was 24 hours every day!!!. Of course, part of the maintenance was to measure all tubes. All did measure good!. Now about tubes in audio...what matter for us.

On these days, the sensitivity of ML electrostatic speaker is very high. You do not need a lot of power to drive them at a real life unplugged music, this is for winds, strings a percussion music. The dynamics are reproduced with outstanding clarity and precision. Of course, still is not the real thing. Why? Because we are using linear signal on linear devices, and the musical instruments are logarithmic. Everybody talks about the dB, but no one talks about the SABIN.

The design of the tube amps on these days, using better components like teflon caps, metal foil resistors and using the SS regulators to bias the tubes is what we have. Why is this? If you read regarding the harmonic texture of the tube vs SS, the tube harmonic distortion is even, and SS is odd. Our ears detect the odd distortion faster than the even distortion. Even distortion makes to a piano to sound like that particular piano, or a guitar or any musical instrument. The even distortion is what makes my voice to sound like Roberto. Odd distortion makes to sound Roberto odd. I hope you can understand what I am trying to explain. Again, some of us like tubes, and other like SS. And this is right! We deserve what we like, we are paying for it, right? But myths are things that are very general and can be wrong. As an example, the KT-120 supposed to be OK for 2000 hours. If you use a proper SPL and will not drive them to a clipping level, you can extend their span life for 20 years or more. So, no big deal with bad tubes. I have to say that when you have a bad channel, on tube is very evident.

There are a lot of explanations to who is right or wrong. What I say is: trust what you like. Your ears will tell. They are the final judges. Sound quality is like food. I love this analogy. You might like your food with garlic and onion. Some of us might hate that kind of food. If you do a search of what the musicians sound like. Usually, they love tubes! The soft clipping of the signal is one thing, and the quality of the sound. There is a kind of sweetness on tubes that the transistors lacks...but again, this is a matter of liking. Both media on these days are in the same boat! Same thing. Same seek to reproduce the real world. I have a language barrier. I wish that I could express myself better...but I can not. If I sound rude or trying to impose myself, this is not my intention. If I did, please excuse me!
Reberto could u please email me I need to ask u about the summit speaker switching amps? Thanks
[email protected]
 

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