Why do Martin Logans have such Lousy resale value and interest?

[Rich]

Did I say MLs don't hold their value?

No, Minorl did. You just implied support for that point when you jumped to his defense with some offhand comment about Klipsch speakers and how they hold their value.

Klipsches, the "real" ones go down and then hold. And in some cases such as those with Stephens and WE drivers value seems to go back up.

That's pretty much the same as the legacy ML speakers. I'm not sure exactly what your point is. If you are not trying to defend minorl's contention, why did you bother to bring Klipsch into the discussion? If you are trying to defend his point, you might want to start with some specific examples rather than vague generalities.

 

[FISH_MAN]

maybe I am just stupid but what does Klipsch have to do with any of this?

 

[Irishtom]

maybe I am just stupid but what does Klipsch have to do with any of this?

We were talking about changes in speakers and how speakers hold value. "Real" Klipsches are an example of speakers that had very few changes and hold value well.

For speakers that went through few changes and are now worth more than the original price look at the Altec 604.

 

[Minorl]

Why do Martin Logans have such Lousy resale value

Well, I have no problem being raked over the coals by people that really want a target but are not willing to really read what I wrote and understand my intention.

I own a pair of Monolith IIIPs. I also owned a pair of the last version of the Sequels. I do not change equipment often and I design and build my own amplifiers. (Electronics/Electrical Engineer). I in no way intended to imping or degrade Martin Logan products. Far from it. I defend them often to people. On listen and they are sold. However, again this post was about why products, specifically ML's have such lousy resale value. While I agree with others that many other product's resale value is also "lousy" it is also because of the market in general, but mostly because of product saturation. If a manufacturer continually changes their products every few years, then the older discontinued products will lose value quite quickly. This is true. Also as I have stated, many older products are just as good or even better than some newer products. Newer is better is often not true. Newer sells magazines and magazines don't review older products. So, manufacturers have to come up with newer products just to get reviewed and to sell products. If you don't see it or read about it, people don't know you exist.

That is all I intended. Sorry if some of you were insulted. I am trying to understand why. I never said I couldn't afford more expensive products. I can. I don't see a product out there that really can touch (and I have listened) my Monolith IIIPs unless they costs a lot more and it just isn't worth it to go to that next level. The costs per sonic benefit isn't there. But I go to my favorite store in San Diego often and listen. They stopped selling Martin Logans and the owner told me it was because when Gale Sanders sold the company, quality control went down, products were not as good and products changed too often. Other reasons also. Basically, they and their customer base lost confidence in MLs. I was sorry to hear that as the mid to top MLs are still to me very very good.

So, that said, rake away. I will tell the truth whenever possible and try hard to avoid insulting anyone. I again am sorry if I did unintentially.

Enjoy all.

 

[Rich]

If a manufacturer continually changes their products every few years, then the older discontinued products will lose value quite quickly. This is true.

Your saying it does not magically make it so. Please provide some examples that show the depreciation on Martin Logans is any different than similar levels of gear from a manufacturer that rarely changes their product lines. This theory is your whole thesis in this thread, but you have yet to provide a single real-world example to back it up.

 

[Kevmars]

Sonic change is the nature of the industry. One year you may like panels. Ten years later you may prefer a cone speaker. Yet another five years you may prefer the sound of a panel hybrid while at the end settling on the horn sound. Loss of value is measured in aesthetics and performance. It's just proper business to keep market lines fresh and conformative to industry standards. So there.

 

[Mantana]

Your saying it does not magically make it so. Please provide some examples that show the depreciation on Martin Logans is any different than similar levels of gear from a manufacturer that rarely changes their product lines. This theory is your whole thesis in this thread, but you have yet to provide a single real-world example to back it up.

Well, i still have my Spires on Agon at the lowest price of $4600....
9 month old speakers in mint condition. I've only had 2 guys inquire,
from Canada and Argentina. I still see Maggies going for 3k+
on 3.6s for 5+ year old speakers. I do think Maggies hold their value
better than most and maybe it's because they don't upgrade often...
the 20.1s and 3.6s are over 10 years old.

 

[tonepub]

I'd love a few examples of a manufacturer who's "older" product sounds better than their current product....

The economy is really still in the toilet and I haven't seen anyone's high end audio gear doing all that well. But in the end, the fact that ML does continue to support and make parts for older models, should be a positive in terms of resale.

I do agree however, and wish manufacturers would not change models quite as often. And we have been happy to review gear that has been out for sometime. Our review of the Magnepan 1.6, Nagra PL-L and the upcoming Manley Steelhead are all examples of things that have been in production for a few years or more.

I always try to convince mfrs. that we should review older product to keep the momentum going and also, that's why we are starting our "long term" review with the Spire, that we had for almost a year. We definitely have more of these reviews going forward.

 

[asindc]

Well, i still have my Spires on Agon at the lowest price of $4600....
9 month old speakers in mint condition. I've only had 2 guys inquire,
from Canada and Argentina. I still see Maggies going for 3k+
on 3.6s for 5+ year old speakers. I do think Maggies hold their value
better than most and maybe it's because they don't upgrade often...
the 20.1s and 3.6s are over 10 years old.

The recent trend on Audiogon is that very few items go for listing price unless they were priced to sell fast to begin with. Therefore, just because an item is marked as sold does not mean it sold for the price listed. Just a year ago, anything that I listed on A'gon went for the asking price. Now, I usually have to negotiate a bit.

 

[schnauzer/lover]

Hi everyone, been away for a while, had to log in forgot my pass...etc

I do not feel the OP is being a troll for his question, being that many of us love our MLs, can manifest some of the responces given!

First I like to respond to "why would you want to have two different speakers"? Well because if you can afford it, there is nothing like going to surround sound, 5.1 or 7.1, movies and then back to my ML 2.1, all complete independent of each other, like AV receiver verses tube-Amp, Pre-Amp etc. I have Definitive speakers 5.1 top of the line and the Spires. For pure enjoyment of music I take the MLs every time.

My theory on why it is taking long for you to sell your Spires, is the price category they fall in, the majority of buyers want the cheapest speakers they can get, we know better, but others do not, drop your price to $1,200 and watch how fast your speakers will sell.

Another problem is, people that think nothing buying a pair of $12,000 speakers will not buy used because they got the $$$$ to get that new smell, first touched feeling.

So when you buy pricy speakers and suddenly change you mind, do not expect prople to be lining up to buy you $$ speakers.


Not sure if this was helpful but it is nice to visit my favorite site, and all you coool listening dudes! Bob

 

[Minorl]

Why do Martin Logans have such lousy resale value, etc.

Well, I don't live on the internet. I have a job and a life so, that is why I don't come back and respond in thirty seconds as some may suggest. Apparently, some folks want a fight instead of constructive discussion, which may also include criticism of manufacturer's actions, etc. I stand by what I wrote and my intentions were not to insult others. That cannot be said for some folks. Healthy disagreement is okay, but not listening (well reading) and just reacting is just wrong. But, oh well.

Products lose value for a number of reasons and I pointed out several. If you buy a product and two or three years later it is no longer made by that company, then it is obsolete and the value will sink faster that a boat anchor. That is economics 101. If the manufacturer has a good reputation for service and quality, that will minimize this somewhat. But a product will also lose value after purchase because the markups are no longer part of the original price. Same as when you buy a car and five minutes after you drive it off the lot if lost a lot of value. But if it is a good car that is still being produced, and is a quality product, from a manufacturer with a solid reputation, then it will hold value somewhat. Music reproduction equipment is a different animal. Especially speakers. However, I'm not going to argue semantics and small points. The premise behind products and price drops is an economic certainty. It is just the degree that is the question.

Look at the current Martin Logan products and check their used value on a number of used equipment websites. Or better yet, look at their Blue book value. You will be shocked. Same for other manufacturers. It is less if products are still being manufactured. If they are not, well, check that in the blue book also. Which recent Martin Logan products were just replaced with something else? Check that in the blue book also. You will see a trend. Might be something to know before buying if you worry about selling them someday. I typically don't buy for that reason.

so, a healthy, honest, open discussion? Bring it on.

Enjoy.

 

[tonepub]

However, what is the point of this discussion?

None of us can really have a decent critique of any of this without talking to the marketing people at MartinLogan. If you don't know what their business model is, you really can't assume or speculate about anything.

Where is it written in stone that they have to change the models at 3, 5 or 10 year intervals to be valid? Everyone does it a little bit differently.

Honda changes the Accord every 2-3 years and it's one of the best selling cars in the world, holding a great resale, so change isn't as big of a factor as you might think.

Selling used hifi has always been a bad proposition.

 

[twich54]

Selling used hifi has always been a bad proposition.

Ah yes....but buying used can be a sheer delite !!

 

[FISH_MAN]

when I bought my lexicon mc-8b I do not think I could find a dealer that would even talk about getting a new one for less than $6,800.00 I believe at the time. I only paid $2,300.00 used WOW what a deal to bad I really never like it.

 

[Mantana]

Really discouraging....i've had my Spires up for sale on Agon for the last
two months and have been the lowest offer, currently at $4600. I've had
almost zero interest. MSS HI FI ran an ad for 3 days on an identical black
ash pair (no warranty) at $400 higher and sold in 3 days. Yes,
i know they have a name and move a lot of product, but there are
3 of us on Agon selling at lower prices, but MSS HI won out. It's
not the amount of feedback, since the other two sellers have plenty
of positive feedback. Also, i've been watching plenty of other product
on Agon move with zero feedback. My next attempt will be to try
and sell on consignment at my dealer. I'm sure they'll want 20%
but maybe they'll get the traffic and can sell at $5800 so i can still
net about $4600.

 

[FISH_MAN]

I think your ad needs some help frankly it is just terrible.
1) you need some better pics of your speakers
2) you need to get the other speakers out of the pic and do not mention them.
3) your ad is cold and has a matter of fact attitude.you need to convey how good these speakers are and how happy the new buyer will be when they buy them. just refering to reviews is not enough to convince someone on the fence.
4)you need to convey to the buyer that you will do everything that you can to help them with the purchase.

remember just because you are selling something on the cheap it does not meen that you will not need to put in some selling effort to get them to move.one of the reasons MSS HIFI does so well is that he puts a sense of urgency in his adds and tries to make you feel that if you do not move right away you will miss out! people get sucked into this sometimes.I really think if you get some better pics and re word your add so that you come across more as one audiophile who loves his speakers you may have better luck. price is not everything maybe you should ad some kind of extra service or accommodation and actually raise the price sometimes people are Leary to buy the cheapest on the list.

anyway I hope some of this helps it comes from years of selling experience.

 

[Jungle Jack]

Really discouraging....i've had my Spires up for sale on Agon for the last
two months and have been the lowest offer, currently at $4600. I've had
almost zero interest. MSS HI FI ran an ad for 3 days on an identical black
ash pair (no warranty) at $400 higher and sold in 3 days. Yes,
i know they have a name and move a lot of product, but there are
3 of us on Agon selling at lower prices, but MSS HI won out. It's
not the amount of feedback, since the other two sellers have plenty
of positive feedback. Also, i've been watching plenty of other product
on Agon move with zero feedback. My next attempt will be to try
and sell on consignment at my dealer. I'm sure they'll want 20%
but maybe they'll get the traffic and can sell at $5800 so i can still
net about $4600.

Hello,
Another huge aspect is MSS can and will accept Credit Cards. That makes a huge difference. By both offering a way to pay off the purchase over time in addition to having purchase protection, who wouldn't go that route?

I do agree that the wording and description of a item can help immensely.
In fact, last month I sold a Aragon 8008bb for asking price (1,250) in three days. There was another 8008 (non BB) listed for 450 Dollars less, but the buyer said he was impressed by the description and wording of the listing.

There seem to be a great deal of all of the current vintage ML's for sale on Audiogon currently. With the number of Summits and Spires available, it makes for a brutal sellers market. I would honestly try local marketing. Even Craigslist. In fact, I picked up a Depth (non i) NIB with a AQ Sub-1 cable for 700 Dollars from a former Sound Advice employee on Craigslist.

ML

 

[Mantana]

Hello,
Another huge aspect is MSS can and will accept Credit Cards. That makes a huge difference. By both offering a way to pay off the purchase over time in addition to having purchase protection, who wouldn't go that route?

I do agree that the wording and description of a item can help immensely.
In fact, last month I sold a Aragon 8008bb for asking price (1,250) in three days. There was another 8008 (non BB) listed for 450 Dollars less, but the buyer said he was impressed by the description and wording of the listing.

There seem to be a great deal of all of the current vintage ML's for sale on Audiogon currently. With the number of Summits and Spires available, it makes for a brutal sellers market. I would honestly try local marketing. Even Craigslist. In fact, I picked up a Depth (non i) NIB with a AQ Sub-1 cable for 700 Dollars from a former Sound Advice employee on Craigslist.

ML

Thanks Mark,

I simultaneously run ads on craigslist on both my Montanas and
Spires. Been doing that ever since Nov. 2008. I've only gotten
responses on the Montanas.

That's a good point about MSS accepting credit
cards...still, damn, a sale in 3 days ? You're
right...it's brutal.

 

[Jungle Jack]

Hello,
Mantana, I hope your speakers get sold soon. I am not sure what you are planning on replacing the Spires with, but how about finding a speaker you like on Audiogon and offering to trade? Here is an example of a speaker locally:http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1255448892&/MBL-111A-Absolutely-Stunning!

Also, I have found on difficult to sell listings on Audiogon, offering some sort of freebie can really help. Be it a set of cables, DVD Player, anything of value really.
Cheers,
ML

 

[Mantana]

Hello,
Mantana, I hope your speakers get sold soon. I am not sure what you are planning on replacing the Spires with, but how about finding a speaker you like on Audiogon and offering to trade? Here is an example of a speaker locally:http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1255448892&/MBL-111A-Absolutely-Stunning!

Also, I have found on difficult to sell listings on Audiogon, offering some sort of freebie can really help. Be it a set of cables, DVD Player, anything of value really.
Cheers,
ML

I've suggested a trade on a number of occasions, but no luck. I
intend on buying a pair of Maggies, probably the 3.6s, but maybe
the 20.1s following a sale.