Yes Dave, it's time to raise the issue again

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That article repeats what I said earlier in the thread. You're banning a weapon based upon it's appearance much so more than any performance enhancement. Basically like placing the body of a corvette over a lumina frame and engine and now calling it a performance sports car. I think the reason why you see these mass shooting perps, prefering to use these weapons, is because of some sort of 'Rambo' effect. If I'm going to commit a really bad act, why not look the part of the baddest killer possible, and I'm guessing the assault weapon helps complete that look. But if the 'assualt' weapon isn't available, does that mean the killer wouldn't use an equally dangerous gun?

Honestly, should I have the unfortunate position of having a person come through the office door today, looking to kill myself and fellow employees, I would probably prefer they had an assault rifle in hand, as opposed to a pistol. For one thing, a good number of the assault rifles, (perhaps due to the number of clips within the larger magazines?) are sort of notorious for jamming. I believe that both the Aurora and the Washington mall shooters had their assualt rifles jam up on them. Secondly, a rifle isn't as easily concealed, so you may see what is coming in beforehand. And thirdly, a rifle is harder to swing around quickly to get off shots at moving targets than a handgun. Perhaps allowing more people running in different directions to escape or even to perhaps make an attempt to subdue the shooter. There is a reason why street criminals, bank robbers and such almost always prefer to use pistols over rifles for close range work. They only care about performance and concealability, not how they look in the mirror before going out to complete a task.

Does this mean that you don't ban assault rifles or larger magazines? Perhaps not. But the number of lives saved, when compared to the number of homicides a year, will probably be something similiar to a rounding error. Here is a link to an opinion that I think comes close to how I stand on gun control. http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...d99594-4ae3-11e2-b709-667035ff9029_story.html
 
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There is obviously some disruption in the space/time continuum, if Kevin and I are agreeing on an issue.

But I do agree that the vast majority of gun violence is not committed with "assault rifles" but with handguns. Banning assault rifles will have zero effect on gun violence numbers (as was proven in the study I referred to earlier on the previous AWB).

Mass shootings, while they get a lot of media attention, and conjure up a lot of emotion because of the horror of it all, still result in a minuscule number of deaths compared to everything else. Less than 200 to 250 people a year are killed in this manner, even with a broad definition of the term mass murder. Compare that to 10,000 or more killed each year in alcohol-related traffic accidents, or the overall gun homicide rate of over 12,000 a year, and it becomes clear that the focus on assault weapons is more about an emotional response to a tragedy than about actually saving lives. It is political window-dressing, meant to placate anti-gun groups and the media, but not really solving any of our serious problems.
 
There is obviously some disruption in the space/time continuum, if Kevin and I are agreeing on an issue.


It is not best that we should all think alike; it is a difference of opinion that makes horse races. ---- Mark Twain
 
It is not best that we should all think alike; it is a difference of opinion that makes horse races. ---- Mark Twain

Well, at least you are remaining true to your conservative colors. I, on the other hand, risk being labeled a LINO (liberal in name only).
 
The above linked article is very well written and I agree with most all of his points.

I will be honest and say that the most alarming thing in this whole debate in my opinion is that the President (or so the Vice-President has said) is considering using an executive order in this matter. I agree that the mass shooting are horrific, terrible and unfathomable tragedies and that there are somethings that need to be fixed. I disagree that banning weapons that look dangerous and high-capacity magazines is the answer.

People seem to forget that the gun laws in CT worked. The Newtown shooter was not able to purchase weapons and in the end killed his own mother to get access to her weapons. Should his mom have kept a tighter reign on the weapons? Yes, I think she should have had them locked up. However, think about if she did have them locked up. Her son could have killed her, found the key, opened the safe and still gotten to the weapons.

Again, the most alarming part of this whole debate is what seems to be many law-makers willing to just start banning weapons that look dangerous without taking a look at the whole of the problem and what seems to be the intention of the executive branch to use power that it doesn't rightly have in my opinion (and based on the constitution).
 
Hi runnin,

Thanks for your post but it does raise one obvious question.

If Ms. Lanza was unable to legally buy the military style AR15 semi-automatic rifle with large capacity clips, would the Newtown tragedy have occurred?

GG

PS: Speculation regarding what our President will do is exactly that, speculation. Seems to me staunch supporters of gun rights seem to be quite paranoid. Not saying you fall into that category but, given the rash of gun and bullet purchases in the past month or so, I really don't understand this phenomena. I also don't understand why any reasonable person can justify the need for the general public to own a military / law enforcement weapon that is clearly meant to kill numerous folks in a very quick period of time. Such as a war / combat environment. Would love to hear your thoughts.

Heard on NPR today that the typical price for an AR15 has doubled since Newtown.
 
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Gordon I seriously don't understand how you can raise a speculative question about the Newtown tragedy and THEN criticize my concern as being speculation. Sigh.

Also, that doesn't say anything about my concern the the president has considered using an executive order to essentially at least "partially" disarm law abiding citizens.

Another question, why is this topic about assault weapons ( that are not by definition, assault weapons) being so adamantly debated now? If Obama was so much against preventing gun related deaths why does a horrible tragedy have to happen for him to do it?

Personally, I view all the politicians that are trying to "capitalize" on this tragedy as some of the worst kind of scum. If they truly believe in stricter gun legislation then it should have been a priority BEFORE any tragedy occurred.

I am also of the opinion that bad people do bad things. Mass shootings are devastating and disgusting; however, at the risk of sounding callous, the are a very, very minor problem in looking at the safety of citizens of the United States. That fact alone is concerning to me in that the 2nd amendment's purpose was to allow the populace to protect itself against tyranny. I have read the arguments that the constitution is outdated on this topic, but I disagree.

Now if the majority of Americans feel that the constitution is outdated in this regard, then let's have a constitutional convention. It will require 34 states. If there needs to be a change, do it the right way and the constitutional way. Otherwise, any actions that are taken by Obama through executive order is in my opinion unconstitutional.
 
runnin,

I understand the irony of speculation but they really are two separate questions.

One is driven by logical conjecture (if / then), the other by unfounded (at this point) paranoia. Or to use your words, the fear of tyranny.

You didn't answer my question about why private citizens should need, or have the right to buy military assault weapons that are designed to kill many people in a very quick amount of time. Absent the "creep" theory (if the government does this, it's the first step to taking everyone's guns away), no person, on the gun advocate side, has provided a reasonable answer to this question.

In any event, thanks for the input.

Gordon
 
Hi Gordon ---

That 'creep' theory - just seems to be the real issue I think... It isn't just with guns... it is with just about any conversation... Taxes....the 'rich' should pay more (who will the rich be next year?)....Guns....we need to outlaw THESE guns....(what guns will they outlaw next year?)....Healthcare...the government should make sure everyone is covered...(what impact will this have on the 90% of people that do have healthcare - and will companies start to pay the tax - instead of buying the insurance... why not - its cheaper...).... So - with every one of the above - you could say that the initial arguement/statement seems simple and innocent enough - but there is always this trickle down... Now, if the second part of each of these was answered emphatically - then the disagreements about assault weapons etc... would diminish.

Unfortunately, we have politicians that stand for nothing... They want to say "Jim Bob - He's tough on crime...tough on guns...wants to protect your children..." blahblahblah..... And Jim Bob votes for a pointless piece of legislation such as the prior assault weapons ban - which couldn't even identify an assault weapon (see Rich's link awhile back).... They pound their chest and say 'Look at me!!' - and in reality they have made the problem worse by giving people a false sense that they are in fact 'doing something' - when in fact they have done absolutely nothing.

Get rid of the junk - get something done...answer the tough questions honestly... Today's politician doesn't even know what that means... Too busy being 'tough on crime...and protecting your children'...
 
Gordon,

I really could not have said it any better than timm.

Also, if you actually look at the statistics I believe the weapons that are mis-classified as assault weapons are responsible for only 2-3% of gun related violence. So please explain to me why we are focusing on semi-automatic weapons that are essentially the same as hunting rifles. If you have not done so already, please do a little reading on the difference between the different types of rifles that are being discussed.

Before you ask why anyone would need these so-called assault weapons please explain to me why law abiding citizens should not have them?
Also, you mention that these weapons are meant for law enforcement/military. Okay, so in the situation of a tyrannical government, if these weapons are banned what exactly are you expecting people to defend themselves with against a tyrannical government? This is not a question of the likelihood of that happening, it is the principle of the matter. The founding fathers wrote the 2nd amendment 2nd for a reason in my opinion. I cannot speak for them at the time, but I highly doubt they expected that England would have made the decisions that it made to force the colonies into a revolution.

You can call it paranoia if you would like, but if the unspeakable and unbelievable does happen in this country then what will you have to say to that.

Also, speaking to your comment that my speculation of the president using executive order is unfounded I would ask that you do a little reading of the many news articles out today that point to the president and the white house administration believing they do have executive power over guns. In my opinion it is not speculation if the president himself puts the option on the table.
 
Before you ask why anyone would need these so-called assault weapons please explain to me why law abiding citizens should not have them?
Also, you mention that these weapons are meant for law enforcement/military. Okay, so in the situation of a tyrannical government, if these weapons are banned what exactly are you expecting people to defend themselves with against a tyrannical government? This is not a question of the likelihood of that happening, it is the principle of the matter. The founding fathers wrote the 2nd amendment 2nd for a reason in my opinion. I cannot speak for them at the time, but I highly doubt they expected that England would have made the decisions that it made to force the colonies into a revolution.

You can call it paranoia if you would like, but if the unspeakable and unbelievable does happen in this country then what will you have to say to that.

While I agree with your sentiment, I don't think it is a valid argument. Do you really think that having access to automatic weapons would allow the general population to overtake the most powerful government and military in the world should the need arise? Personally, I don't think there is a chance in hell of that.

This is a tough situation. The solution is complex from many angles and is certainly not entirely a gun control discussion. Frankly, I don't know how any of this can possibly prevented. I wouldn't say that a solution shouldn't be investigated, but I wouldn't be ashamed to say that I believe that it is impossible to prevent, either. These are random occurrences. Are they more frequent now than they used to be? Absolutely. But what was the population of the planet in 1950? 2.5 billion? And today? 7 billion? The probably of these random occurrences happening has skyrocketed just because of that fact alone.
 
runnin,

To answer your question, they are designed to kill numerous individuals in a very quick timeframe. For example, a combat / war / hostage situation. Why any law abiding citizen would need such a weapon is beyond my feeble mind to comprehend. As is the concept of a tyrannical government. With all due respect, I personally cannot and will not live in fear.

I understand your perspective and I hope you understand mine.

What we can do is to respectfully agree to disagree.

Best,

Gordon
 
Thanks for your post but it does raise one obvious question.

If Ms. Lanza was unable to legally buy the military style AR15 semi-automatic rifle with large capacity clips, would the Newtown tragedy have occurred?

Hi Gordon-

I would say that, yes, the tragedy would still have occured. He also had with him his mother's Glock 10 mm and a Sig 9 mm handguns. Either of these two guns will fire just as fast as the AR15. The only advantage the rifle would have had, in close range shooting as it were, would have been a magazine holding more rounds. But we are talking a matter of 4-5 seconds for even a novice to change out an empty magazine and pop in another preloaded magazine. When you have children sitting at their desks or huddled in a corner, those couple of seconds wouldn't have mattered much. Also, I have read where he only used about half the rounds in his 30 round magazines before changing them out. My guess is that he took advantage of any lulls in his shooting, such as when walking from one room to another, to change out his magazines so he wouldn't be interrupted when actually firing. So while there is an advantage to having a 30 round magazine vs a 10 or 12 round magazine found in handguns, the advantage in this case, and in most of these mass shootings, wouldn't have been significant at all.

I don't like the argument of what a person 'needs' as being a measure of wether or not something should be lawful. I have a Ruger P95 9mm handgun that I purchased just for target shooting, and I guess it can double as home defense, although in most situations I would probably grab my shotgun instead. I know that there are plenty of people who don't think that I 'need' a 9mm semiautomatic pistol with a 12 round magazine, and would want to have it banned. And they would be correct..... I don't need it, I merely want it. People don't need cars that go 0 to 60 in 4 seconds, they want them. People don't need 8000 sq ft homes, with all the greater energy they consume, they just want them. The greater majority of the so called 'assault rifles' with the larger magazines will never be used by the owners to shoot a person, and in most situations when they are used in that manner, another gun would have worked just as well.

If a ban on the larger magazines will save lives, which I doubt, then I'm all for it just for the sake of the lives saved, not just that people don't 'need' them. But I really hope something more comprehensive is done that will actually be proven to make a difference, which would probably mean stricter criminal laws, easier forced treatment of the mentally ill, and better background checks. I don't think executive action by the president would be either wise or constitutional, expect to perhaps strengthen enforcement of already existing laws. Should he create new laws in this manner, it would really throw off the balance of the three government branches, as intended by our founders.
 
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Kevin,

Thanks for your perspective. It really helps me understand the many sides of this issue.

Gordon
 
Impeachment is an option being considered. I would think less drastic actions like law suits challenging the order if one really felt it was not constitutional. Interesting there is all this hoopla with out prior knowledge of what is planned.


J
 
Kevin was able to pretty much put into words what my thoughts are on the situation.

I think part of the reason I have a hard time explaining where I am coming from is that it is hard for me to understand why people are okay with giving the government so much power.

@Gordon: What you call living in fear is actually just the opposite in my opinion. I am currently serving in the US Army and have been for the past 8 years. I have seen first hand how corrupt governments can be. I am also a student of history and fully understand that once countries begin to toe the line with controlling most aspects of the populace's lives it is not far off from becoming more of a socialist society. I don't agree with socialism or the progressive movement on principal. It is against my moral sensibilities. I am proud of the Constitution and I would hope that many of our politicians are also.

@Hocky: Please understand that the weapons in question are not automatic weapons. Automatic weapons are illegal and I agree that there is no real use for them other than on the battlefield. The "assault weapons" that are being discussed in the political realm are actually not "assault" weapons. They are semi-automatic rifle with larger capacity magazines.

For anyone that doesn't understand anything about rifles, it is much, much easier to reload handguns. It is also much, much easier to conceal handguns. People tend to notice someone carrying a large rifle much faster than they would notice someone carrying multiple handguns on their person. Handguns are much easier to acquire, much easier to conceal and in my opinion much more dangerous due to many people's callous nature toward them.

I would also point out that in pretty much all of the recent mass shootings, the criminal that did the shooting had a serious mental disorder of some kind. Why exactly are we pointing the finger at the inanimate object involved in the crime more harshly than we are looking at tackling the actual difficult question about the mental health process and how we can improve it? Is it a knee jerk reaction or is it just a power grab by the more left leaning politicians?

I would also say that if research and studies demonstrated that banning higher capacity magazines had any effect on the crime rate I would be all for it. However, the research just does not show that at all. I would caution people to be wary of making decisions on this based on their feelings of what people "need". This is a right that is clearly stated in the Constitution. Again, if the Constitution needs to be changed and the majority of Americans feel that it needs to be changed, so be it. Let us have a Constitutional convention and change it, but change it the RIGHT way.
 
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