More amp experiences with Logans

[bonzo]

Had two rounds, at different dealers, with AR, Devialet, Krell, and Arcam firing EM ESLs. I would have loved to buy Devialet for its functionality, but AR and Krell won.

With one dealer, had an AR pre + po set up costing 11k GBP compared with Devialet 170. At another dealer, who demos in his untreated living room, compared the AR VSi75 (Audio Research integrated) with Krell s550i, and the Devialet 110. In my opinion the soundstaging, mellowness, bass and control, everything of AR and Krell was easily superior. I am finding it tough to judge between AR and Krell on the basis of sound. The more expensive AR pre-po combo sounds great because it is so mellow, but the Krell integrated is so much more cheaper.

The Arcam 450 driving the EM ESL was pretty good too. I wanted to try it as an AVR processor, but tried it in 2-ch mode coz the dealer that day had some 5.1 set up issues.

Kind of reinforces my faith in Krell and Summits.

Funnily enough, also compared EM ESLs to Wilson Sophias twice, a 16k GBP Avalon, a 19k Focal, and a 10 Revel. I preferred the 2.5k EM ESL in every case, so I pretty happy about my decision now.

 

[marck]

Hi Bonzo, out of interest where are you in the UK?

The arc will give you more realism and smoother sounds whereas the krell is more about power and impact. My view is that I prefer the arc type of soundstage it is more realistic and easy to listen to for long period of time. The krell (which I used to have) May give you an initial wow with the impact but overtime you will tire of that and want more truthful reproduction.

Obviously these are my views and I am sure that many will disagree.

BTw I never liked the devialet, never understood what all the fuss was about!

Rgds
Marc.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 4

 

[bonzo]

Hi am in London. Where are you, can I come over for a quick listen of the CLXs?

I agree normally about arc, and that's what I was expecting, so the krell surprised me. Actually the arc did not lose out in terms of impact, I was quite happy with it as well. Just that the krell integrated is much cheaper

 

[User211]

Funnily enough, also compared EM ESLs to Wilson Sophias twice, a 16k GBP Avalon, a 19k Focal, and a 10 Revel. I preferred the 2.5k EM ESL in every case, so I pretty happy about my decision now.

Stat panel addiction syndrome

I always liked tubes with Logans, and I agree with Marck's assertions but don't go spending £11K on amps for a pair of EMs. If you liked the ARC type sound then some 2nd hand solution would be fine. Older ARC pre/power amps really did, and still will, sound very good indeed, so with a bit of research you could suss out the better older models and then try and find some. You can then re-sell at minimal loss if you don't like them.

Defo go listen to his CLXs though.

 

[bonzo]

Hi, I have actually bought used Summits. I demo EM ESLs because some of the these dealers have only that model available for demo with these amps

 

[bonzo]

Any recommendations for older ARC models, integrated or pre-po that sound as good as the new ones? Tough for me to demo older models

 

[marck]

Hi Bonzo,

So I am just outside London so would be great to meet up.

Currently I am having my room redecorated so system is out of action, however as soon as it is up and running let's set up a date. Please PM me your contact details.

BTw are you going to any of the two Hifi shows that are coming up in September and October?

Agree with user211 you need to keep the system in proportion.

If you like the arc sound take a look at the ref3 preamp and 110 amp. That would be a great system.

Rgds
M.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 4

 

[bonzo]

My system is Krell integrated s300i with Summits, Chord Epic Twin cables (cheap) and chord interconnects all on a Quadraspire rack. As all this is used, I want tosee where I can upgrade. Looking at valve now, then will look at supports (like Stillpoints or granite slabs or Townshend audio below the speakers), then chord upgrades, and adding some bass traps.

My favourite valves are AR and VTL.

I am moving into a new property in October, so all this will be set up there. Right now it's just purchased. Will PM you.

 

[bonzo]

And yes, definitely will be at Windsor on that October Saturday but not so sure about making the trek to Whittlebury Hall this month

 

[Spike]

Unfair comparison?

Using the EM ESL, you have inadvertently played into the Krell's strength by asking the amplifier to power the full-range load. The EM ESL will give you a hint as to what the ARC's sound, but it will not show you what the ARC is capable of. Recall that you Summits have internal amplifiers for the bass, relieving the amplifier to be responsible for powering the panels only. This lighter load is where the tube amplifiers like ARC shine. The *ONLY* approach is to audition tube amplifiers driving active Logans like your Summits.

Good luck with your search,
Spike

 

[bonzo]

Yes that makes sense thanks

 

[bonzo]

That being said, I was quite happy with AR's performance on the drums of John bonham. I mainly compared them on the vocal and acoustic section, to check which gave me a better soundstage, and both were excellent.

 

[Pneumonic]

Any recommendations for older ARC models, integrated or pre-po that sound as good as the new ones? Tough for me to demo older models

For years I successfully ran ARC Classic 120 mono's on my pairs of CLSes.

 

[hifinutt]

having run some wonderful belles mb200 with my summit x for some while I really enjoyed them . however I have recently upgraded to a msbs200 [class A] stereo amp and its very fine indeed. extremely transparent , very musical and is a brilliant match for the summit x

 

[Bevensee]

This is a very interesting thread for me! I was considering trying an ARC VS110 second hand fore my Vantages, but was concerned that I would get treble roll-off due to the not-that-low output impedance of roughly 0.7 Ohms. Can any of you who have tried ARC with Logans comment on the treble performance?

Thanks,
Jesper

 

[Pneumonic]

This is a very interesting thread for me! I was considering trying an ARC VS110 second hand fore my Vantages, but was concerned that I would get treble roll-off due to the not-that-low output impedance of roughly 0.7 Ohms. Can any of you who have tried ARC with Logans comment on the treble performance?

Thanks,
Jesper

Legit concern, Jesper.

You have two fundamental issues to worry about. High frequency Z mismatch which causes high frequency rolloff when the Z falls below a couple of ohms as well as insufficient voltage drive when using low Z taps, as a counter to the Z mismatch issues.

In all the time I ran my ARC 120's I never heard any rolloff issues. Perhaps this was because such rolloff really only happens in the top octave or two and my ears never could (subjectively) hear up there anyhow.

The bigger issue, IMHO, is whether or not the amp has the required voltage drive, when connected to the lower tap, in order to properly drive the speaker without voltage clipping. Unfortunately, you'll really have to try, whatever amp you are thinking about, connected to your system, in your particular room, playing the music you most play at the volume levels you desire, in order to tell if it clips or not. The other issue is, outside of taking measurements, it's next to impossible to tell if your amp does clip or not. This may be a moot point anyhow because a 'clipping, tube amp' is what most tube amp users are after.

 

[MPS]

Can't say about VS110 but some roll-off was there with VT100mkI and ML Odyssey but then again VT200mkII and ML CLX seem to be a good match

So it's hard to say unless someone has experience with that exact combo.

 

[as350_b3]

I am powering my Odysseys with Krell monoblocks and the combination is sublime. I don't get any listening fatigue even after several hours, and the extra power and headroom that comes with the Krells is amazing.

Ultimately you're going to have to pick what pleases you the most - we all hear things a bit differently and place varying emphasis on particular amp traits.

 

[edwinr]

I'm running my Montis with Naquadria Fireblade monobloc tube amps. The sound from these amplifiers is exceptionally smooth and detailed. Last week, I connected a friend's Atoll Electronique IN200 integrated mosfet amplifier (It's a French brand for those that don't know

The sound was unpleasant to say the least. The solid state glare was so obvious after spending many months with tube amplifiers. That's not to say the Atoll is a bad amplifier - it just doesn't suit the electrostatics. I've heard the Atoll on Paradigms, and it sounds fantastic.

Just reading other people's experiences, it's clear that with electrostatics, the only way to tell if an amplifier is going to work is to try it.

 

[MPS]

Just reading other people's experiences, it's clear that with electrostatics, the only was to tell if an amplifier is going to work is to try it.

Well said. Electrostatics are difficult load and requires amplifier with low output impedance.