ML Newbie with CLS speakers

[Meby]

Hi guys I am new to ML speakers and have been an admirer for a while. I was able to purchase a pair of original CLS speakers locally from the original owner. He was running them with ARC classic 60 amps and said that the combination were not able to play orchestral music as there was not enough power.
I was a Maggie owner in the past and was never able to get them enough tube power (that I could afford!) even Rogue 120 watt monos was not enough for orchestral music.
I really love tubes and would prefer to use them in all stages of my system, but I want to be able to listen to the 1812 overture.:rocker: Will I need a SS amp to be able to listen to orchestral music on the CLS speakers?
Thanks in advance,
Mike

 

[Brad225]

Welcome Mebe. Congrats on your purchase of CLS's. You will need to be patient and find the right combination of related equipment to go with them they are very revealing of the equipment upstream.
I am sure you have read many of the threads here about how CLS owners have set up their gear to bring out the best in their speakers.
I have not heard CLS's with Classic 60's so I can't speak directly for those amps. I have CLS IIz's and in the past used them with Classic 120's. I never felt I needed more volume than they could provide.
That said I don't know if you are looking for your hair to part when the cannons go off in the 1812 overture or what.

I later replaced my 120's with VTM 200's and though they had a very different sound I would say there was not a huge difference in the available volume.
I don't tend to listen loud so someone here that does listen at higher levels may have more information on that specifically.
Also I think the originals were much different to drive than my IIz's are. Again some of the other CLS owners may have better input.
If you look at one of the recent threads on CLS's, Craig is running his IIz's with a pair of 35 watt set amps though he said they will not play extremely loud. But then he has a monster pair of Nemo's for that duty.
Keep us up to date with what you decide and post some pictures in the members section of your system.

good luck

 

[Meby]

Brad thanks for the info. I do not listen very loud either but I like to crank it every once in a while. Maybe I will by one SS and One tube amp.

 

[nsgarch]

Hi guys I am new to ML speakers and have been an admirer for a while. I was able to purchase a pair of original CLS speakers locally from the original owner.

Great! BTW we have at leat ONE terrific gal here -- wish there were more.

I was a Maggie owner in the past and was never able to get them enough tube power (that I could afford!) even Rogue 120 watt monos was not enough for orchestral music.

Maggies are not stats; they require watts with a lot of current (easier for SS). Stats require watts with a lot of voltage. Different animals.

I really love tubes and would prefer to use them in all stages of my system, Will I need a SS amp to be able to listen to orchestral music on the CLS speakers? Mike

No. Any tube amp that can deliver~100W into 4 ohms will be plenty unless you live in a church

One thing I wanted to add to Brad's remarks is if you listen to 1812-type grand orchestral music, you'll want a sub like a ML Depth (one will be just fine ;-) to fill in that last octave (under 30 Hz) that the CLS can't quite reach. See my system for an example.

I also recommend stands. Some folks like Chris (C,A.P.) have made their own, but Sound Anchor makes some excellent ones (IMO) just for the CLS http://www.soundanchors.com/page24.html It took awhile, but several CLS people now use them They do get the speakers up about 12", a little too high if you're sitting close. However since they're all made to order, I'm sure you could specify 8" which might be better in most spaces.

 

[twich54]

I was a Maggie owner in the past and was never able to get them enough tube power (that I could afford!) even Rogue 120 watt monos was not enough for orchestral music.

welcome !

FWIW, nsgarch is running his CLS's with his Mac275 and by all acounts, he'll chime in with more info, all things are positive.

Now I fully understand my Vantages do not place the demand on an amp that your CLS's do, but also my Rogue M-150's are more than just thirty watts of increased output, primarily increased bandwidth for one.

Also, with regards to the 1812 Overture, IMO, at times it is one of the worst
performed / interpreted pieces in all of classical music. it gets alot of 'disrespect' for this reason, but if there is one conductor that always does it justice it's Lorin Maazel.

 

[Meby]

Thanks for the responses everyone, I am really excited to be an ML owner now. I was down the SET path for the last couple years and got bored with it, so I am going to try this route for a while.
I have to learn to stop using 'guys' just a habbit but I mean no disrespect to any female members, just a midwestern term that is used for male or female.
I am glad the CLS are not as current hungry as the Maggies were, that is why I ended getting rid of them. I will put my system up in the member section as it gets built out, right now I have to sell some items to get the funds to flesh out the new system.

 

[Bernard]

Also, with regards to the 1812 Overture, IMO, at times it is one of the worst
performed / interpreted pieces in all of classical music. it gets alot of 'disrespect' for this reason, but if there is one conductor that always does it justice it's Lorin Maazel.

Dave, have you heard the version with the choir ? It's quite nice; mind you, I listen to it maybe once every 5 years. Can't remember who the conductor is.

 

[Cherian]

I saw the CLS you got off of Audiogon. You got a very good deal!!! I was thinking about buying them. It sold quick. Great buy by the way.

 

[zaphod]

Hi guys I am new to ML speakers and have been an admirer for a while. I was able to purchase a pair of original CLS speakers locally from the original owner.

congrats and welcome. your CLS decoder ring is in the mail

 

[raanan]

Hi guys I am new to ML speakers and have been an admirer for a while. I was able to purchase a pair of original CLS speakers locally from the original owner. He was running them with ARC classic 60 amps and said that the combination were not able to play orchestral music as there was not enough power.
I was a Maggie owner in the past and was never able to get them enough tube power (that I could afford!) even Rogue 120 watt monos was not enough for orchestral music.
I really love tubes and would prefer to use them in all stages of my system, but I want to be able to listen to the 1812 overture.:rocker: Will I need a SS amp to be able to listen to orchestral music on the CLS speakers?
Thanks in advance,
Mike

Mike-You can investigate the following inexpensive amps:Modified Adcom 555,Behringer EP1500,Moscode 600.Using Spelz Zero autoformers should help too.

 

[Meby]

smiled upon by the gods!

I know I got a real good deal on the speakers, someone was looking out for me! I was going to purchase a pair of used hybrids when the CLSs showed up locally at an awesome price. The owner's wife wanted them out of their living room as he had purchased Quads and she did not want both in the living room. I saw the price and they were local.:rocker: So I took the plunge.

 

[Meby]

Ranaan,
Do the autoformers negatively influence the sound in anyway? Are they basically the same thing that McIntosh uses on their new amps?
Thanks,
Mike

 

[David Matz]

Meby,

Congratulations on snatching the CLS!

I really like the BAT VK 55 with ML - very sweet sound. Also, I saw a used MC 275 at the Libertyville Audio Consultants. They will probably let you demo it.

I would love to hear the CLS sometime! Maybe we can try some different amps.

Best of luck with your system,

David

 

[Aaron S]

I was able to purchase a pair of original CLS speakers locally from the original owner.

I just saw that these had sold on Audiogon for $750 and thought, "Wow, what a lucky dog!"

So you're the lucky dog? Congratulations on your fantastic purchase! :music:

 

[C.A.P]

So you want the 1812 in your living room. You will need power and one hell of a front end set up that is clean. The tubes tend to be more laid back but can sound good. However; If you want slam and glam you will need a SS amp and maybe a tube pre amp. Cabling will really help too. #1 thing to do is, as Neil stated , get good stands. Its a MUST ! I run Krell and against the populous its as smooth as hell. I think the KPS 25sc does the package justice.

 

[nsgarch]

Autoformers

Mike, McIntosh only uses autoformers on their SS gear (tube amps already have output transformers)

The purpose of an AF is to help a (solid state) amplifier "see" a more easily driven load than say the one ohm +/- that a CLS drops to at 15kHz. Most SS amps (other than Macs and a couple others) have their output transistors (which are low impedance devices as are speakers) directly coupled to the speaker, since they pretty much match up OK impedance-wise. But as the speaker impedance gets lower, the amp's power output gets higher, and sometimes there are problems that make a SS amp extremely unhappy (as in: blow up!)

Mac decided (again this applies only to their SS amps) to forfeit the potential power increase of SS in favor of amplifier safety (and OK, a certain amount of occasional McUser ignorance ) So by putting an autoformer between the output transistor and the speaker load, you will get the same power output into any speaker you care to connect. And you won't hurt the amp, even if you short the speaker terminals! BUT, you pay a price, particularly in reduced damping capability, ordinarily one of the major advantages of an SS amp; if you require it to drive a cone woofer, which you don't with a CLS, CLX, Summit, Vantage, or even a big Soundlab!

Power tubes have a HIGH impedance (think of a high-revving small 4 -cyl. engine) and would never drive even a 16 ohm speaker without an intervening gearbox (output transformer) to reduce those revs. That's why I'm always preaching that you don't really need a high powered tube amp (or a AF-equipped SS amp ) to drive just a stat panel. My single MC275 @ 90W/ch driving CLSIIz's from the 4ohm speaker terminals works just fine. It will achieve very high sound pressure levels. I've never gotten it to distort, and I've tried, (OK, not crazy-tried) and it runs very cool for a tube amp, as all McToobies do.

So if you like the sound of a tube amp's mid-range, especially in combination with the accuracy of an electrostat, there is really nothing to fear. And leave the autoformers for the folks whose SS amps are overheating!

 

[raanan]

Ranaan,
Do the autoformers negatively influence the sound in anyway? Are they basically the same thing that McIntosh uses on their new amps?
Thanks,
Mike

Mike,I have tried the autoformers on a number of amps with the CLSs.
With the moscode 600,the sound became less grainy,much more refined,with a very slight loss of transparency.The advantages by far outweighed the slight loss of transparency.With the ARC VS-110,the sound was better without the autoformers.
Raanan

 

[Kevmars]

Personally, I've never heard the Lorin Maazel performance of the 1812 overture but for my money, one of the best recordings I've ever heard is by Sir George Solti and the CSO. If great is what you're looking for, he's done it. But beware, there are a few different instances in which he recorded the piece and all are not perfect. Just one is.

 

[Craig]

Also I think the originals were much different to drive than my IIz's are. Again some of the other CLS owners may have better input.
If you look at one of the recent threads on CLS's, Craig is running his IIz's with a pair of 35 watt set amps though he said they will not play extremely loud. But then he has a monster pair of Nemo's for that duty.

Actually, its a stereo Art Audio, Jota High Current version 24 watt SET amp. The Nemo amps work very well with the CLS but then I'd expect them to. They're a great match with the CLS. I didn't really expect the 24 watt set amp to sound as nice as it does with the CLS although it will run out of steam at loud volumes, but I don't listen to loud anyway.

Even though the Jota amp will work well and sounds nice with the CLSIIz this combination does not bring out the full sonic potential of this amp. It really needs a good 90db 8 ohm cone speaker to hear the best it can do.

This particular SET amp is a high current version and should be more powerful than it's wattage rating would lead you to believe. I have no idea of what the current ratings are and no one seems to publish those specs for amps, only wattage which doesn't tell enough about a speakers ability to drive a speaker.