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Robin -

Hate to add to your confusion, but I just thought of another possibility for you - The Manley Steelhead phono preamp. This is a tubed phono preamp that also has several line-source pass throughs for inputs. I do not think there is any amplification of any of the inputs with the exception of phono. BTW, this has been a very well regarded piece of equipment that many professional reviewers use. I use the new ARC PH7 phono pre run through my BAT VK51SE (preamp) to very good effect. I run my Esoteric DV50s (universal player) through the BAT with no apparent detriment to the sound. Just thought you might be interested
 
Wonderful Recommendation...

aliveatfive,

The Manley Steelhead Phono tubed Pre-amp is definiately a great recommendation. I'll check it out as well. More choices and possibilities to concider is good, very good regarding this issue... :)


;) Thank you very much, It's never too late for a excellent recommendation or suggestion where audio quality is concerned. ;)
 
Great recommendation!

aliveatfive said:
Hate to add to your confusion, but I just thought of another possibility for you - The Manley Steelhead phono preamp. This is a tubed phono preamp that also has several line-source pass throughs for inputs.
Just some minor corrections regarding the Manley Steelhead. There are 2 MC inputs, 1 MM input and ONLY ONE line input. The line input bypasses the phono gain stage, but is still hooked up to the volume control and the output stage. Looking at this unit, it's really a full-blown pre-amplifier with emphassis on phono rather than linestage. Just from reading up on the spec, I think the Steelhead is just what Robin's been looking for. Great suggestion.

Spike
 
Passive Linestage answers

Robin said:
Mitt,

Thank you for your positive response, ideas and suggestions as well... :)

Please see my new post above (to Spike)....

What is a Passive Linstage? How does it work? Is it an amp or pre-amp or a better switching devise? What would be a good brand to consider for a Passive Linestage?
Robin,

First off, I'm an amature, not an expert, so others may want to weigh in here. I do have some understanding and will elaborate as succinctly as I can, but a bit of history regarding how Pre-amps in general and volume controls specifically work is necessary. Sorry if this is too rudimentary, but I don't know how else to explain it.

All of our systems consist of source components (cd players, turntables, tuners, tape decks), amplification components (phono stages, Pre-amps, power amps, integrated amps, receivers - this last includes a source component in the tuner section), and transducers (speakers or headphones).

Source components typically output very low level signals called line level signals. Phono cartridges - especially moving coil cartridges - produce such a low level signal that an additional amplification stage (a phono stage) is required to boost this very low level signal up to a line level. Line level signals are the inputs to your typical receiver/processor/pre-amp. The minimum function of the input stage of your receiver/processor/pre-amp is to provide switching functions between sources and volume control. Many receivers/processors/pre-amps also have controls for things such as balance, phase, tone controls, tape loops and in the case of many receivers and processors, multi room controls, Dolby Digital and DTS processing etc. Some, but not all, of these devices also add an additional level of amplification to provide even more gain to the signal that is then fed to either an internal or external set of power amplifiers -2 channel, 5.1 channel, 7.1 channel etc.

The amount of gain contributed by a pre-amplifier stage to the audio signal is the core issue that I am trying to expound upon here. The differences between passive line stages, good pre-amps, and lower level pre-amps and receivers centers around how gain is employed (if it is employed), and how the volume control on these components operates. In a passive line stage there is no additional gain stage in the signal path. Line levels signals are passed through the device by means of a very high quality switching network and volume is controlled by means of an attenuator (usually a series of very high quality, closely tolerenced resistors or resitor networks). Run at maximum volume, the attenuator adds no resistance to the signal path. Volume is controlled by adding or subtracting resistance.

High Quality pre-amps actually function in much the same way to be honest with you. Full function pre-amps (those that include a phono stage) do have gain associated with the phono stage, and most have some amount of gain associated with their specific circuit topography, but many, depending on their design, function essentially as a passive device through at least a portion of their overal gain capability. That is to say that, depending on the circuit designers intent and execution, gain may not be added until the volume control (or attenuation) reaches a certain point, at which time changes in the volume control deviate from gain attenuation to active amplification. I know that BAT, ARC, Conrad Johnson, McCormack, Manley, Cary and others employ such hybrid (passive/active) type circuits to one degree or another.

Lastly, lower level components and receivers function as more fully active devices, often employing single resistor networks or even single solid state digital circuits (chips) to control volume functions that are handled by the many closely specified discreet devices that make up higher quality attenuators and volume controls. A lot of the money that we spend on more expensive equipment of this type is tied up in these high quality discreet components that literally cost pennys to manufacture as mass market solid state devices.


If you are interested in a passive linestage many would say that the best one available is the Audio Synthesis Passion shown below. It has 3 line level inputs as well as a "Direct" input that bypasses the input selector completely. This may be just the sort of thing you are looking for, although the Manley Steelhead that aliveatfive and Spike mentioned is a supperb unit as well.

Keep in mind what I mentioned though about the circuit topography of many GOOD modern pre-amps, and of course, above all, trust your own ears.
 

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OMG! What a Wonderful and Very Eliquently Informative Discription...

Tim,

Wow! :D Amazingly informative discription for the process of a passive linestage amplifier. I'm blown away... That was simply wonderful. :) Now I finially understand, for the first time, what a passive linestage is supposed to do. Excellent writing if I may say so... I appreciate your taking the time to explain this to me. Thanks again Tim, this means a lot to me... ;)
 
Great post, Tim. I'm a bit wary of line level preamps. Unless they're properly engineered, they can offer poor sound quality - this is based primarily on my listening to them, no technical opinions here! I understand what these line level preamps are meant to do, but I'm curious as to the electrical load as seen by the power amp. I thought that if the electrical load (impedance?) is not correct, then the power amp may not operate as it should, or bandwidth is curtailed, etc.
 
Try the DCS P8i

Robin,

I have the DCS P8i. I think it only doesn`t respect you #4.
 
Music First Passive Magnetic Preamp...

Tim, Spike, aliveatfive, or anyone,,,

What do you guys think of the "Music First - Passive Magnetic" Preamp? :confused:
It is a different kind of passive preamp technology than, The Ultimate Passion's traditional many resistors high quality passive preamp. Please see this review and tell me what you think:



http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/musicfirst/passive.html




I had never knew of this kind of passive preamp before researching it a lot further - thanks to Tim - I've been astounded by the real quality of the Ultimate Passion and now this Magnetic Passive... :)
 

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Rear View of the Music First Magnetic Passive Preamp...

The Music First is also a UK based company. It seems a lot of excellent passive preamps come from the UK. ;)
Well, the Opra Audio - Consonance, comes from China. The Consonance is another magnetic passive preamp as well. But I diegress.

:) Anyway Here is another photo of the rear view of the -
Music First Passive Preamp:
 

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Robin -

Theoretically, you'll have a switching device with no distortion whatsoever. You must be aware, however, of the impedance that your power amp will require and what kind of cables you'll be able to use. If you do get that Mac 275, find out what it needs to see at the preamp end. You don't want incompatibility. BTW, the Absolute Sound (latest issue) listed your Mac in its Editors' Choice section.
 
McIntosh MC 275 Paired with the MF Magnetic Preamp...

aliveatfive said:
Robin -

Theoretically, you'll have a switching device with no distortion whatsoever. You must be aware, however, of the impedance that your power amp will require and what kind of cables you'll be able to use. If you do get that Mac 275, find out what it needs to see at the preamp end. You don't want incompatibility. BTW, the Absolute Sound (latest issue) listed your Mac in its Editors' Choice section.
aliveatfive,

I would theoretically plan to run balanced cables between the source, MF - Magnetic Preamp, and the McIntosh MC 275. I do know the MC 275 requires six volts to "see" or drive the amplifiers...

My question is, since the Music First - Magnetic Preamp doesn't have any power, I would theoretically need either a source with power level out or an active preamp in order to drive the MC 275's, is that correct?
 
Robin said:
aliveatfive,

I would theoretically plan to run balanced cables between the source, MF - Magnetic Preamp, and the McIntosh MC 275. I do know the MC 275 requires six volts to "see" or drive the amplifiers...

My question is, since the Music First - Magnetic Preamp doesn't have any power, I would theoretically need either a source with power level out or an active preamp in order to drive the MC 275's, is that correct?

Robin -

I just looked up the amp on the McIntosh website. They quote in order to drive the amp to full power you need 1.2 volts single-ended (RCA connectors) or 2.5 volts balanced (XLR connectors). That means that your non-passive device (cd player, tuner, etc.) would have to output that many volts in order to drive the amp to full power. If your source devices do not have that much power, you would need an active preamplifier or line-stage. I would use short, low capacitance cables if you go with the passive line-stage.
 
Robin, that magnetic preamp review was very well written. I thought it was well balanced and fair. So we can accept that the Music First is an outstanding example of the genre. But we also have to accept that any passive preamp has some limitations when it comes to amplifier matching. I know some power amplifiers require a compatible electronic load - otherwise they won't work properly.

Also, lets talk about value for money... Most passive preamps are incredibly overpriced. How these high prices can be justified - I have idea. The Music First seems better value for money, but still...

I just don't know, Robin. If this pre can give you the transparency you're after, maybe you'll have to pay this kind of money. But I think there are better alternatives.
 
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Source - Vms Out Put Voltage...

aliveatfive,

Thank you for clarifying this simple point, which just had eluded me... :) The good news is all of the sources I'm considering deliver at least 2.5 Vms (Balanced) out put and at least 1.5 Vms (unbalanced) out put.

Anyway your wonderful explanation has been valuable to me. Thanks again for clarifying this important technical issue. Now I know what I must look for in a source to passive preamp, to amp especially, later on, in the finial auditioning phase of my audio quest.
 
Passive Preamp... ?

edwinr,

:) It's encouraging to know you concur with the article of the - Music First Magnetic Passive preamp - 6moon's review but now I am very curious as to what you would recommend as alternative improvement(s) to consider, for the exclusive ML music direct (uncolored) system, such as I am proposing? I value your input, please tell me what ideas you would suggest. :eek:
 
Robin said:
aliveatfive,

Thank you for clarifying this simple point, which just had eluded me... :) The good news is all of the sources I'm considering deliver at least 2.5 Vms (Balanced) out put and at least 1.5 Vms (unbalanced) out put.

Anyway your wonderful explanation has been valuable to me. Thanks again for clarifying this important technical issue. Now I know what I must look for in a source to passive preamp, to amp especially, later on, in the finial auditioning phase of my audio quest.

Robin -

Just to further confuse the issue: Some (many) phono preamps do not have the grunt to drive a power amp through a passive line stage. If you ever decide to do vinyl (a very good idea in my opinion) you'll not get a useable phono signal through a pass-through switching device. Consult all specifications very carefully if you decide to go this route. There are many true line stages (that amplify) that really do no harm to the purity of the signal. Audition first if you can. This could be a very big decision for you.
 
My personal opinion, keeping in mind that I haven't heard the passive you are considering, is that passives can reproduce the tonal balance of music exceptionally well but fall down dramatically in the areas of dynamics and pacing or PRaT. I've yet to hear a passive that generates anyhere near the dynamic shading and power of an active unit.

YMMV
 
risabet said:
My personal opinion, keeping in mind that I haven't heard the passive you are considering, is that passives can reproduce the tonal balance of music exceptionally well but fall down dramatically in the areas of dynamics and pacing or PRaT. I've yet to hear a passive that generates anyhere near the dynamic shading and power of an active unit.

YMMV
Robin,

Risabet and aliveatfive have both hit the nail on the head in my opinion, and are advocating what I was saying all along. I would urge you to take any opportunity to listen to a really good active pre-amp, I think your fears would be quelled.

As you all know I'm a big proponent of BAT gear, but I also love the sound of the latest generation Audio Research gear, Conrad Johnson, Hovland, VAC, Cary, Tom Evans etc. Truth be told I would always recommend a vacum tube pre-amp, but that's just me. Many, many good solid state devices as well - Krell, Classe, Sim Audio, Rowland, Boulder, Burmeister, MBL. Both lists could go on and on.

My point is that a GOOD pre-amp will blow away any receiver or mid-fi component, and I believe still satisfy the desire for beautiful, uncolored sound that you are craving
 
Lots to Consider Here...

aliveatfive, risabet and Tim,

I understand what you are all saying. I know your recommendations are excellent and you know of what you speak. However, I think for me, it's all going to come down to the auditioning phase... On paper some models are wonderful but I know that is not the ultimate comparision test.
My ears must decide... Roberto is an audio God... (I just thought I'd throw that in here).

I have auditioned some but I will also, now include active preamps in my auditioning just because I want to compare the active sound with the passive sound, as you guys have suggested. I will post my finding, when I'm closer.

Thanks guys. :) I really appreciate all of you help. :D
 
Now, Robin, I don't have a technical background, although I have some small understanding from reading and dabbling with kits etc. So my opinion is purely subjective. I have not heard the Music First preamp. I have heard other preamps both at home and in various shops. The overall impression I have obtained is one of a rather flat and univolving sound. Nothing I can point a finger at, but there's always been something lacking. Now from what I have read of the other posts here, it may very well be a lack of dynamic range - this may explain the rather 'flat' sound I have heard. So I guess if the power amp is not presented with a signal of the correct electrical load, or the signal level is insufficient, the power amp is not able to do it's job properly.

As to preamp options, I have heard the new Audio Research Reference 3. Wow! This is a great preamp. But it does cost though. I can't afford to buy it... yet.
 

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