Chicago Shooutout: ML Summits vs Sanders 10b

[jtwrace]

I know who Cherian & Trumpetdoug is but who is everyone else?

 

[Cherian]

That is Wayne in the Mofi Shirt, Doug next him, then me, Burke in the ML shirt and David in red.

I had a great time!! Thanks to Burke for the great food and wine. I got to listen to some very good music and outstanding speakers.

I liked the Sanders speakers very much but I have to give it to the ML Summits. I felt the summits did more things well. The bass integration of the summit is more transparent and fluid. In the end for me it came down to bass integration. Here the Summits had a big advantage over the sanders. However, the Sanders focus is spot on. The summits have a wider and more room filling soundstage. Again it depends on your taste.

Burke’s music room is awesome. This is one of the best sounding rooms I have even listened to music in. A job well done Burke!!

 

[jtwrace]

Burke’s music room is awesome. This is one of the best sounding rooms I have even listened to music in. A job well done Burke!!

Burke

Have you ever taken room response measurements? If so, would you be willing to share them with us?

 

[Burke]

Burke

Have you ever taken room response measurements? If so, would you be willing to share them with us?

I have ordered the RplusD software and microphone/preamp from Acoustisoft but it has not arrived yet. I will definately post the plots when I have them, most likely in "The Room with in a Room Project" thread.

 

[jtwrace]

I have ordered the RplusD software and microphone/preamp from Acoustisoft but it has not arrived yet. I will definately post the plots when I have them, most likely in "The Room with in a Room Project" thread.

OK. It would've been really cool to compare both speakers as well. BUT I'm curious to see how the Summits act in the new room.

 

[Burke]

Rich (SCompRacer) and Doug (TrumpetDoug) took most of the pics today, leaving me free to cook and swap out gear. Hopefully they will post them soon.

Thanks to everyone a great time was had by all, we heard some good tunes on two sets of great speakers.

I spent some more time after everyone left tweaking the position of the Summits. I got out my tripod and the Leica Distro D3 laser tape we all had some much fun with. the speakers are symmetrical now with 0.1" to the side walls, back wall and the chair. The chair also had to move slightly. Then I repalaced the tape measure with the SPL meter on the tripod and tuned the bass up using the controls on the back of the Summits. The imaging is much better now and the bass is smoother. I had to tear myself way just so I would come post pictures and first thoughts. I could listen to the current set up all night. Most of what I listened to sounds all new to me. I have a whole music server to rediscover.

Again thanks to everyone.

 

[David Matz]

Burke,

Thanks again for a great time. Both speakers are excellent. To my ears, the Sanders sounded a bit more transparent, the Logans are a bit less. The bad recordings were brutally honest on the Sanders, and were more enjoyable on the Logans. The bass integration/ coherence seemed to be better with the Summits, but it's possible the Sanders were not dialed in perfectly. The sweet spot was bigger on the Summit also.

If God forbid, Martin Logan went away, I would be very happy with the Sanders speakers.

 

[Burke]

David Matz's CJ Act 2 & Ayre CX-5

These are some tasty electronics. Got to love that Lucite pagoda. I have a weak front end so David brought over a world class one.

 

[Burke]

David, Wayne, Cherian, & Doug

David Matz, Wayne (theWB), Cherian, and Doug (TrumpetDoug).

 

[Burke]

The short story

The Sanders 10b put up a great fight, but in the end I think we all liked the Summits just a little bit better.

Truly there were no losers. Either of these speakers would make a fine addition to any high end audiophile system, you will happy with either one, each does somethings better than the others, in the end it will be a personal preference thing, as it has to be.

I will write up the long story tomorrow after work.

 

[User211]

I will write up the long story tomorrow after work.

Good stuff. Look forward to it. And respect to Roger for having the courage to supply a pair. Not an easy decision to make unless you have a lot of faith in your product. And it's an especially hard job to sway hard core ML users who are used to the ML presentation of sound.

 

[amey01]

Good stuff. Look forward to it. And respect to Roger for having the courage to supply a pair. Not an easy decision to make unless you have a lot of faith in your product. And it's an especially hard job to sway hard core ML users who are used to the ML presentation of sound.

I was thinking the same thing. Thank you Roger, and I look forward to the "full story" write-ups!

 

[TrumpetDoug]

Burke and guys

Thanks for a wonderful day. I told my wife I would be out for a couple of hours and the next thing I knew it was 7-8 hours.
It was great meeting all of you and putting a face to comments and systems I have seen on the small screen.
I came to the event with perhaps a different mind-set than others in that I had never heard the Summits before. Getting the chance to hear the Sanders was a added bonus. IMO the Logans just sounded a bit sweeter to me. Maybe its because I am familiar with the tonallity and balance of this line of speakers now. But they just seemed to ring more true. I agree that if the Logans went away I could easily live with the Sanders.
One very cool thing about the Sanders that I wish the Logans had was the electronic x-over. WOW with remote (not there unfortunately) Could it be that with time and your own tweeking one could "dial-in" these speakers even more to ones liking?
Bottom-line It was the Logans by a comfortable nose.

Thanks again for the wonderful time. Great meeting Burke - (good food and nice wine device) Dave - (what a pre-amp and CDP) Rich - (go analog) Wayne - (thanks much for the Luca CD I love it) Cherian - (I would love to hear you premier 16)

Doug - out

 

[SCompRacer]

What I have.

 

[jtwrace]

The Sanders 10b put up a great fight, but in the end I think we all liked the Summits just a little bit better.

Truly there were no losers. Either of these speakers would make a fine addition to any high end audiophile system, you will happy with either one, each does somethings better than the others, in the end it will be a personal preference thing, as it has to be.

I will write up the long story tomorrow after work.

I'm not trying to be a pain...I really think that using a room analyzer you will be able to help you understand why one is acting the way that you think...maybe Roger has something that he could bring and help with until your system comes? Just a thought..

 

[SCompRacer]

I'm not trying to be a pain...I really think that using a room analyzer you will be able to help you understand why one is acting the way that you think.

You might be right. I have to say I was disappointed with the 10b’s bass in that room. Since the 10b’s are very similar to my MK III’s, I know they are capable of better. The 10b’s bass actually sounded better outside the room, in the hallway at the dining room. Could that mean the room still requires some additional below ?Hz treatment? I don’t know, but perhaps measurement with the 10b’s would tell. Anyway, my offer still stands, come on down and hear what the bass with the MK III’s sounds like in my place.

I know there were some problems with shipping, but the remote for the active crossover should have been provided. To me, the best way to adjust the active is sitting in the listening position.

 

[jtwrace]

You might be right. I have to say I was disappointed with the 10b’s bass in that room. Since the 10b’s are very similar to my MK III’s, I know they are capable of better. The 10b’s bass actually sounded better outside the room, in the hallway at the dining room. Could that mean the room still requires some additional below ?Hz treatment? I don’t know, but perhaps measurement with the 10b’s would tell.

I would like to preface that I am no acoustical expert. Just stating a difference of opinion here and not looking to start an argument or take away from the phenomenal job Burke did with that room. Burke and I do disagree on how much of a room needs to be treated (entire or partial). My experience is limited to three partially treated rooms (one done professionally) and two before and after partial treatment with excellent results. One of the non professional rooms was similar in size to his, the other is mine and much larger. My offer still stands, come on down and hear what the bass with the MK III’s sounds like in my partially treated room.

I know there were some problems with shipping, but the remote for the active crossover should have been provided. To me, the best way to adjust the active is sitting in the listening position.

Please don't take me as bashing Burkes hard work at all. I'm not! I think it's very important when one is going to post on an online forum their results to make absolute sure that they did everything possible to give a fair comparison. Although it's very easy to say "this is what the ML's like" it may not be the best for the Sander. I believe that room measurements are crucial when setting up a speaker or system. In turn, measuring the room with BOTH speakers and making sure that the placement is correct (via RTA in REW) would certainly help with that. Also, if you were to add treatments you would know as well by using the most simple tests. I strongly recommend one take the time and learn how to do this as you will certainly improve your sound...

One more thing, maybe Angela could chime in regarding this as they would know best about the 10b.

 

[SCompRacer]

I never meant to imply you were bashing Burke’s hard work. And I never meant to imply that. After rereading the post, I felt I should continue an unfinished discussion that Burke that I had started Sunday at the CAS get together, so I edited it while you were quoting it. In that discussion, I understood him to say you must cover every inch of the walls, and I disagreed. By partial coverage, I meant covering a percentage of the walls and corners with treatments.

I don’t have any room software, but have used frequency tones with an SPL meter. Someone told that is not the most accurate way to do it either. I just know it is better than when I started and left it at that.

 

[TrumpetDoug]

Some pics

Here is a couple of pics from the event.

Pic 1 - Cherian and Burke measuring (Leica) to make sure they gave each speaker a fair shake.

Pic 2 - Rich and Cherian (Rich and I had some nice analog discussion, he knows his stuff when it comes to the old TT.):bowdown:

Pic 3 - Some of the early taste, then came some great BBQ by Burke.:rocker:

 

[Bernard]

Pic 2 - Rich and Cherian (Rich and I had some nice analog discussion, he knows his stuff when it comes to the old TT.):bowdown:

Is that the Rich with the incognito system?