Another shakeup at ML?

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I somehow find a bit weird that ML is accused of abandoning high end when some of their latest products are their most high end subs ever.

Yes, ML has devoted more attention to trickling down tech into lower cost speakers with Electromotion and the Motion series as good examples. But why is that not good? In my oppinion, looking down the nose at such initiatives is the worst high end snobbery.

The Summit X is better than the Summit it replaced, the Montis is better than the Spire it replaced, the Electrmotion is the best entry-level stat ever made, and the new subs look very impressive and innovative. Exactly where is the argument tyo support the negative statements of ML?
 
The CEPro blurb says...

Melchione is out due to "philosophical differences in the direction he was taking the brands."

We don't have any more facts, so time will tell what this means.

FWIW, my recent interactions with ML (Truth in Sound demo, and subsequent inquiries about the BalancedForce sub) have been encouraging. ML has repeatedly stated that business is good, and they are committed to evolving both ends of their product line. For all we know, maybe the outgoing CEO wanted Paradigm to absorb the ML brand, and Shoreview said "sayonara."
 
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I somehow find a bit weird that ML is accused of abandoning high end when some of their latest products are their most high end subs ever.

Yes, ML has devoted more attention to trickling down tech into lower cost speakers with Electromotion and the Motion series as good examples. But why is that not good? In my oppinion, looking down the nose at such initiatives is the worst high end snobbery.

The Summit X is better than the Summit it replaced, the Montis is better than the Spire it replaced, the Electrmotion is the best entry-level stat ever made, and the new subs look very impressive and innovative. Exactly where is the argument tyo support the negative statements of ML?

I'll take a stab at this, since I have been one of their biggest critics in recent years. I wouldn't say that they have abandoned the high end, just that they have focused less on improving their high end lineup and focused more on diversifying toward the low end. If you look at the vast majority of new products they have put out in the past few years, they are overwhelmingly at the lower end of the spectrum (home theater speakers, in-walls, lower-end subs and headphones/earbuds). While they make some nicer lower end products, and this diversification has been great for their bottom line, I am sure . . . focusing so much of their resources on these things inevitably leads to less focus being put on improving their top-of-the-line. ML seems to be slowly headed the direction of Klipsch and so many others, and their merger with Paradigm and Anthem is just one indication of that.

Is that opinion "high end snobbery"? Perhaps. But the simple fact is that ML's reputation among true audiophiles is not what it was ten or fifteen years ago. They have made compromises in their high end esl's to make them more WAF friendly (read smaller and lighter form factor). They have made small upgrades to those products over the past few years, and hiked the prices substantially. The CLX was a groundbreaking product, but is nothing at the level of the Statements from years ago. The Summit X is slightly better than the Summit. Not mind-blowingly better. It has a little more seamless crossover from woofer to panel. But it costs half again as much as the Summit! Do you really think it is $5000 better than the Summit? I certainly wouldn't upgrade my Summits to X's for that kind of cash. As for the new subs, they do look nice. But the BF 212 costs $500 more than the Descent i, and has the exact same output specs. Is it an improvement? Or just a more modern design providing the same performance for more money?

As a comparison, look at someone like Soundlab. They do basically one thing and do it very well. They make high quality incredible sounding full range stats. They eschew the weaker hybrid design over the purity of a full range stat. Their stats go down to 28 or 30 hz., without a woofer and crossovers! Even their basic M-3 speaker, about the cost of a Montis, is a full range stat that goes down to 30 hz., which is 26 hz. lower than the CLX! Thus their lower level cheaper stat outperforms ML's most expensive (and only full range) stat at the low end! Their panels also have 60 to 90 degrees horizontal dispersion (compared to 30 degrees for ML's). The M-3 weighs in at 176 lbs., compared to 75 lbs. for the Summit X! (And yes, weight does make a difference in els speakers, where panel stability is critical for accuracy.) More importantly, the M-3 has a panel radiating area of 1300 square inches, compared to a mere 497 square inches on the Summit X (and remember the M-3 costs almost half as much as the Summit X). The A-1, which retails for $7,000 less than the CLX, has 2200 sq. inches of radiating surface vs. the 490 sq. in. of the CLX.

Soundlab isn't the only company like this. You could compare others, such as Quad, Magnepan, and many others. But I personally like the comparison with Soundlab, because they seem to me to be the most like what ML once was, but they are still doing it and refining their high end products. The bottom line is they are focusing on putting out the best high end speakers, rather than leveraging their brand name to sell a bunch of cheap speakers.

Simply put, with a company like Soundlab, you get a laser like focus on delivering the finest high end speakers, which results in a lot more quality for a more reasonable cost. They have a small product line, all high end products made in the U.S., with outstanding customer service. With a company like Paralogananthem, you get cost cutting, offshore production, firing of experienced professionals (as in customer service professionals), price gouging, focus on lower end products to grow the bottom line, a whole lot of focus on marketing, and, apparently, a revolving door for management.

Whether any of this is good or bad really depends on your perspective. I don't think ML makes awful speakers or has totally abandoned the high end. I am just afraid they are headed in that direction and haven't seen much in the past few years to disabuse myself of the notion. Slippery slope and all that. I do believe their overall quality has gone down in certain respects, while their prices have skyrocketed. I see the effects of cost cutting, design for WAF friendliness overtaking design for sound quality, and a stagnation in innovation. Just my opinion.
 
Rich,
I have never listened to Soundlabs (I don't think they have any dealers in Denmark) so I cannot possibly comment on them. ML has always made incremental improvements to their products (Sequel->Sequel 2-> SL3, Monolith, Quest, Quest Z, Request,...), and the individual models have been in the lineup for many many years. I actually like this. If you take away the more mass-marked oriented lines, i.e. the motion series and perhaps the in-wall series, you will find that what they do in their hybrid/ESL lines is a continuation of what they have always done. So it seems to me that your beef has more to do with what they do in the not-so-high end than with what they do in the high-end. And this, to me, is snobbery.

You claim that the Summit X is only marginally better than the Summit. I have never heard them side by side, but I remember that the general consensus when the Spire came out was that it was better than the Summit. So if this is true, ML has now produced 3 hybrids (Spire, Montis and Summit X) that are better than the original Summit. So that will equate to at least 3 times marginal (whatever that is...).

I would very much like to hear a speaker system consisting of 2 CLX and 4 of the new subs with optimized crossovers, and set up with PBK. I think such a system could rival most other systems no matter the price.
 
So it seems to me that your beef has more to do with what they do in the not-so-high end than with what they do in the high-end. And this, to me, is snobbery.

Perhaps. But I have seen what happens when small, leader-driven, goal-oriented hi fi companies get taken over by private equity firms looking to leverage the brand name to squeeze profits. Klipsch is an obvious example. There are many others. If you don't think all the focus on the lower quality mass-produced stuff is taking resources from developing the high end at ML, I think you have blinders on.

You claim that the Summit X is only marginally better than the Summit. I have never heard them side by side, but I remember that the general consensus when the Spire came out was that it was better than the Summit. So if this is true, ML has now produced 3 hybrids (Spire, Montis and Summit X) that are better than the original Summit. So that will equate to at least 3 times marginal (whatever that is...).

Spire was held to be slightly better in the woofer panel integration. It still didn't go as low as the Summit, and had a higher crossover point.

I would very much like to hear a speaker system consisting of 2 CLX and 4 of the new subs with optimized crossovers, and set up with PBK. I think such a system could rival most other systems no matter the price.

I'm sure it would sound great. Unfortunately, it may very well rival some systems costing quite a bit less. $40,000 can get you into some pretty amazing systems. Lots of incredible kit out there for a lot less money.
 
Certainly would be interested in knowing in what "direction" Mr. Melchione wished to take the company...
I'd be interested in knowing why, after what should have been, and probably was a lengthy executive search process, Melchione and Shoreview weren't on the same page from day one.
 
I'd be interested in knowing why, after what should have been, and probably was a lengthy executive search process, Melchione and Shoreview weren't on the same page from day one.

Ding ding ding ding. We have a winner!
 
I've owned ML's on and off for quite a few years, and I've owned Sound Labs as well to name but a few. My opinion is follow the money, or at least where they thought it would lead. Once you start seeing a " higher end" product in places like BB and FS it's clear they are either suffering and desperate or are becoming greedy. (And if you let accountants run the company is the beginning of they end as the $ is the only driver to them, seldom lifting the hood taking a look to see the mechanics behind what makes the machine tick). It doesn't take long for a company to realize they are competing with the big box market and that's when the cost cutting starts so they can be competitive following their likely sizable investment to get this ship off the ground. It's easily seen by the line that was developed in an attempt to hit that target audience what was going on. Once done, it changes everything about what that brand meant to previous supporters so you loose a sizable amount of them, and likely don't attract new ones that didn't know you before. The people that shop at those stores aren't going in there to spend a lot more than any of the product the outlet had on their shelves up until that time, it's just not what that market is about. All it does is damage the once high held name with little to no effect on the new market attempt and it's hard to reverse course at that point. The sort of customer shopping in big box stores rarely cares enough about any product that costs more to eek out better performance, to them audio is way down the list of real priorities, good enough is good enough in most cases. If it weren't for industry just stopping production of CRT TV's and VCR's they'd probably still take a big chunk of the mainstream market. Companies like Sound Lab, Magnepan etc have figured out long ago where they belong and who their supporters are, and continue down their path serving a different thinking client base and aren't out there to take over the world. I think anything other than main stream product, be it automobiles, food, wine, or audio has a totally different thinking group of people linked to it, just like those people that wouldn't compromise on the things that matter to them. Anyway, that's my humble take on it, sad as it is. I still like the product, and am not going to abandon them but truly hope they will be around for years to come and find a successful recipe.
 
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I wonder if the fact that ML loudspeakers have become available at bestbuy/futureshop has taken some of the exclusivity out of them. I certainly wouldn't want to run into some bumpkin that had the same speakers as me, someone that clearly has no idea what a soundstage is, or imaging, or brightness...(tongue in cheek). You know, I don't reckon that there are actually that many dollars floating around in the highend community (given the number of manufacturers those dollars are divided into), and a move into the consumer electronics market is not unreasonable. If that means that ML uses its' manufacturing space, technology and name to make and sell products that aren't suitable for some who prefer 10k and up products exclusively, that's ok too. The realistic outcome of this more diverse business model will be greater access to the line by more people with varying incomes, more research dollars spent on developing new products and improving existing products, and ultimately lower, more competitive pricing on the high end products (smaller margins, more volume). The other benefit is automation which produces better overall quality.

As far as the executive being let go, it happens all the time; even after only a few months. At the end of the day, the board of directors have to decide what's best moving forward. It's easy for us to sit at our computers and complain about the perceived mis-management of Martin Logan, but try and remember that the decisions they have to make have real, not hypothetical consequences. Rest assured, if at some point ML speakers cease to satisfy you, you have hundreds of other options at your disposal. I for one am happy as can be. No complaints here. No sir.
 
Interesting topic. I for one, would just love to see mbl or Wilson or B&W or Pass Labs, etc. for sale at my neighborhood Best Buy or any other electronics retailer. Then, I wouldn't have to go to RMAF, just to be able to hear some of these products. If the hi-end manufacturers could penetrate the market like Bose, then the exposure to quality sound would be everywhere. Of course, due to pricing, this will likely never occur, unless they produce entry level products like ML has done.
 
I know I'm the new guy here, but I'll put my 2 cents in. I actually discovered ML in BB Magnolia, and yeah..maybe it does remove some of the exclusivity from it. But then again, even their "reasonable" priced Motion 40s (which I love btw) are still out of 75% price range. And those that can afford them may not be as interested because they don't have huge woofers and what not.

Even had I discovered ML somewhere more "prestigious" I was able to hear them connected to the gear that I can afford in an environment closer to mine than what most of you folks have. My total investment is about $3,500 after presents and discounts and things of that nature and that is a HUGE investment to just about anyone I know.

I think BB carrying premium names is a good thing. It makes it more accessible to folks like myself that are interested in jumping into this world, but aren't sure how to do it. I compared it to jewelry stores the other day. When I bought my wife's wedding ring I hadn't been out of college that long and I had a "limited" budget by most people's standards. I chose Kay's. Places like Zales we're intimidating to me and Kay's allowed me to browse casually and I wasn't pressured into spending more money.

I always imagine thats what a lot of these "audiophile" home theater stores are like. I'll be scoffed at because I'm not quite ready for the Montis or Theos.

Just my take on it.
 
I am a self described Bargain Hunter. I haven't paid anywhere near full price for any of my gear; I just can't deal with the insane mark-ups on this stuff.
 

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