The Magic Bullet....

[DTB300]

I am amazed at these types of posts I see on a daily basis....

Over, and over, and over, I continually see posts on audio forums from people looking for a recommendation of which component to purchase. Now, I know I have asked what others think, as we all like to see what opinions are. It is not the posts in general that amaze me. But it seems to be more and more common that these folks do not even want to go out and listen for themselves, they want "The Magic Bullet" on what to buy? And they are "usually" talking about some significant $$$$, usually in the thousands and not the cheapo stuff. This one of the biggest "kicker in the pants" for me": "I have $10k to spend, what amp should I buy???" Well, give me $1k and I will tell you what to buy

I wonder if these same people purchase their cars and homes with the same thought processes??? Do these people have so much income available to them that it does not really matter???

It is hard for me to imagine purchasing something worth thousands of dollars and baseing it solely on a post in a public internet forum without knowing the user, their preferences, likes or dislikes, or even the environment and setup which they base their decision on.

 

[Steve]

Interesting observation...here's my take (having been guilty of this behavior in the past)

For me, I like to get feedback from forums that I trust to help narrow the choices. There lots of stuff out there, and it would take forever to listen to everything. Another issue is that sometime you are not able to audition everything you might want to consider. My Benchmark DAC was a prime example of this. I doubt I could have auditioned this component at any store in town. However, I felt comfortable with the feedback from this site, and also felt confident that I could resell on audiogon if I didn't like it. As it turns out, the feedback was right on and I love it! I'd venture to guess that this applies even more to people living in small markets, where high end stores are either very limited or non-existant.

In the end, I always trust my ears. Once I've narrowed my search (and saved countless hours driving around town), I will audition for myself if possible. Buying from audiogon often forces you to buy stuff you can't audition. If I buy something without an audition, it is usually something that I know I can resell if I don't like it.

 

[DTB300]

Interesting observation...here's my take (having been guilty of this behavior in the past)

Yes, we all have done it to a point, myself included.

But there are more and more which do not want to take the time, and just want a direction to take. Again for a couple hundred dollar whatever component, I could see this. But some of the requests I have seen lately have been for $5k and up components.

Maybe this issue is just me and my thoughts on it, or maybe I am just a little crazy, as my wife suggests :rocker: Jeff Z - no reply needed on this statement!! Ha Ha!!!

Dan

 

[Joey_V]

I think it's inexperience while at the same time, the person is motivated to get into the meat of audio without having to jump the hoops. Kinda like a fast-lane ticket to something good.

I doubt it's because they dont want to spend the time, it's probably because they dont have the time.

I really dont see nothing wrong about this, the mere fact alone that the guy is posting on a board is leaps and bounds better than the average guy with money to burn who just goes to the dealer and asks for the best speaker/most expensive component.

When I dont have the time to do something, like say... cook, I leave it to my brothers who gladly cook at my apartment. It's not that I can't learn how, but I just dont have the time... and they're a better cook than I am currently.

 

[DTB300]

I think it's inexperience while at the same time, the person is motivated to get into the meat of audio without having to jump the hoops. Kinda like a fast-lane ticket to something good.

But in the long run, is it the fast lane to something good?? Or is it the fast lane to something which someone else considers good? I have heard a bunch of setups and components that others feels are good, no they consider it great, yet I do not get that feeling one bit.

I doubt it's because they dont want to spend the time, it's probably because they dont have the time.

Ah yes, the great American way. I want it, but I do not want to spend the time or effort to get it. Just give it to me. I guess our society and way of life has made this a reality for some people.

I really dont see nothing wrong about this, the mere fact alone that the guy is posting on a board is leaps and bounds better than the average guy with money to burn who just goes to the dealer and asks for the best speaker/most expensive component.

It is not the posting and asking, as I stated we all have done it. But I feel it is just as bad as the person going to the dealer with an empty check and letting the dealer pick and fill out the check without the person even listening to it. Yes, I have seen this happen to.

When I dont have the time to do something, like say... cook, I leave it to my brothers who gladly cook at my apartment. It's not that I can't learn how, but I just dont have the time... and they're a better cook than I am currently.

You are now talking family and people you are quite familiar with over time. You know what they like to eat and not eat from growing up with them. In your comparison here, I have bought components which a very good friend of mine recommended to me as I know his tastes, likes, dislikes as we have attended many a show together. We know each other very well when it comes to audio.

How about this: You do not want to cook and now you are going to ask on the Internet for someone to cook you something up and bring it on over???? Someone completely out of the blue responds they will and bring it on over and you will absolutely love it becuase it is their favorite dish. This example is not quite as extreme as the mega $$$ audio issue I bring up, but how do you know what they like and do not like, yet you are giving them full rights to do what they think is best for you to eat?

Dan

 

[twich54]

I doubt it's because they dont want to spend the time, it's probably because they dont have the time.

Truth is Joey, that dosen't hold water, for if you don't have the time to 'enjoy the experience of the purchase, then I doubt if they will have time to enjoy the music' !! A wise man (my father) once told me, those that say, "I don't have time", merely don't know how to manage time.

Regardless, I think what Dan is getting at, and I agree, is that some people like to 'feed their egos' by suggesting that they would spend big $$$ and what should they get ??? Some of those posts would have you believe the person was going to give you the money and you were to make the decission !!

I will say that the majority of folks on this forum are far more level headed !

 

[DTB300]

I will say that the majority of folks on this forum are far more level headed !

And I will agree that the majority of purchasers and forum posts are level headed. But it seems this "what do I buy issue" for big $$$ items has become more and more prevalent in the forums.

Maybe it is the nature of things now with the Internet. One can get tons of information without ever having to leave their homes and maybe, just maybe, this is passing on to purchases???

Dan

 

[Jeff Zaret]

I agree with Dan and yes no comment necessary. I also agree with the fact that unfortunately it is becoming part of nature/culture that we want it now. I am not sure if all of this comes with age and experience but I do enjoy the journey along the way. The forums are a good place to get information but so is auditioning/testing in a store, a friends home and something in your own environment when possible.

Just to buy something because someone else said it is good is................well you know. Sometimes it works but more times it does not. We are all guilty of impulse buys but I for one would think that an impulse buy of $1k or more is not normal.

NO more soapbox and I will keep quiet:music:

Jeff

 

[Joey_V]

Regardless, I think what Dan is getting at, and I agree, is that some people like to 'feed their egos' by suggesting that they would spend big $$$ and what should they get ??? Some of those posts would have you believe the person was going to give you the money and you were to make the decission !!

I can see where that might be the case, where ego is the player behind the scenes. In some cases, that may be true, but I don't see it that way from my POV. I honestly think it's because they just dont have the time but also have the desire to have something moreso enjoyable than your run of the mill Best Buy speaker/audio system.

Going on a forum and asking is more than what most people do. To ask experienced audiophiles for their recommendations is a good way to get started. For sure, don't buy on another person's ear, but take into account the suggestion of others is probably a good way to get into the meat of audio.

It's like the way my friends ask me what I recommend, I tell them the components I like and the components I have heard but wish I owned and point them into certain directions based on my experience. Though this doesnt mean that they should take what I say hook/line/sinker, a friendly insight into one's experience is always a way towards a better understanding of audio.

In the end, I say this.... if there are more people interested in hifi, then hifi is able to remain for the next foreseeable future. If all that remains in this world are the fanatics and the passionistas (like us), then there may not be enough economic pull to keep hifi companies in business for much too long.

So either way, looking at these newbies who ask for how to spend their money.... half full or half empty, it's good for the rest of us audiophiles one way or another.

 

[Joey_V]

An example of your typical "What do I do with my $4K?"

=====
I listen to all kind of music (except hard rock, metal, trans)
Specially I like classical music, piano, violin, Beethoven, symphonies and I like it sounds emotional so my speakers should tend to classical music more.
I dont think I can buy a speaker just by going to show rooms and listen. For me, it takes long time to feel the quality. Thats is why I will buy speakers based on other people well explained opinions.
I have 4000$ for speakers and 4000$ for amplifier.
Do you know Dynaudio 25 and SF Cremona Auditor ?
If so, please tell me what would YOU buy to live with all your life and why.
Are there any other kind of speakers I should know about in this price range ?

THANKS !!
Haimke
======

Half-full; this guy really has a passion for audio and would like some help from those with experience, those who have done the demos, and those with perhaps more invested into the audio hobby (not just financially, mind you). He probably doesn't have the time to spend searching for stores that may not even exist remotely close to where he lives/works.

Half-empty; this guy is lazy and is buying because he can.

We can look at it in more ways than the two I just described, grey zones exist in between. But to me, I won't judge anyone because I don't even remotely know their circumstances or their life situations. All I can do is offer what I have learned and learn from others. That's the purpose of these forums that we so choose to peruse.

Joey

 

[lugano]

Great ideas and opinions in this thread.

I can understand the guy that only has $1k to spend for everything, and he wants to cross the river to sonic nirvana by placing the first step onto the right stone to begin with. But this is all that I understand and accept, all the rest is nonsense.

1) It is nonsense to get half-chewed food from others, because the pleasure is in the ride, not in the arrival. Shortcutting the journey like that is a sad thing and won't give you any experience but will give you a lot of doubts regarding the legitimity and rightness of the made choice.

2) It is nonsense to dictate 4k for amp 4k for speakers, schluss fertig end. A 4k amp needs 10k speakers to dance with, and probably the cabling for this is at least $500 if one's goal is harmony and minimizing the weakest link. Help me spend $8k is not a real asking for help, it's just self advertising: "hey jerks, me big, me have 8k ta spend". The point ain't absolutely spending or not, it's the goal one has. What's your room size, what music do you listen to and similar are the first things I need to know.

Imagine if we go into a travel agency and say "I want a $10k holiday" - it's the same thing; the 10k do not count, what counts is the experience you await from the holiday, and only by starting with this you will get useful advice. Seaside ? Mountains ? Sport or relax ? How far ? Previous experience ? All legitimate questions helping the narrow-down process.

There's a lot more to say on this....for now I just bursted.

 

[Joey_V]

Great ideas and opinions in this thread.

I can understand the guy that only has $1k to spend for everything, and he wants to cross the river to sonic nirvana by placing the first step onto the right stone to begin with. But this is all that I understand and accept, all the rest is nonsense.

1) It is nonsense to get half-chewed food from others, because the pleasure is in the ride, not in the arrival. Shortcutting the journey like that is a sad thing and won't give you any experience but will give you a lot of doubts regarding the legitimity and rightness of the made choice.

That's our perception of the audio hobby. None of us knew this from the getgo. Most of us wanted to get right to the best setup we could get. It takes time, experience, and errors to really understand that the best part about the hobby may not the final destination, but the travel getting there.

Great ideas and opinions in this thread.

2) It is nonsense to dictate 4k for amp 4k for speakers, schluss fertig end. A 4k amp needs 10k speakers to dance with, and probably the cabling for this is at least $500 if one's goal is harmony and minimizing the weakest link. Help me spend $8k is not a real asking for help, it's just self advertising: "hey jerks, me big, me have 8k ta spend". The point ain't absolutely spending or not, it's the goal one has. What's your room size, what music do you listen to and similar are the first things I need to know.

Again, that's our opinion of the intricacies of audio. Poll this forum and you will not get a decent consensus on the proper allocation of funds to various audio components... this is where individual experience and biases come to play. Besides the point, the discussion at hand is not how much should be spent on which component.

Like I said, it's all a matter of how each of reads into the posts that people whom we have absolutely postively ZERO idea about. Half-full or half-empty. For all we know, Haimke could be a very nice man who saved $8K of his hard earned money and read a few things on the forums and wants to make this audio-buy a good one. Then again, for all we know, Haimke could be a malevolent man who just wants to shove his e-penis around.

Regardless, I do not think any of us has the right to judge those whom we have no contact with or have zero idea of who or what they're about. I certainly wouldn't want that imposed on me.

 

[discocarp]

I should probably stay out of this thread but...

I've said this before and I'm sure I'll say it again, you expect too much.

Do you know how much time I put into my simple, simple 2 channel summit system? Its insane. And I was already pretty much set on the brands I was going to get!!! Do you know how much I had to learn just to be able to even ask somewhat sensible questions? Sometimes I think it would have been better to just ask what to buy, buy it without thinking, and have invested all that time into work or other projects around the house. Someone who loves the sound of great music but doesn't give a crap about what makes the great music would go insane going through this process. Personally, I enjoyed it immensely. But I sure see how it could drive someone insane when all they want is great sounding music.

You all know such an incredible amount about this stuff. Its a hobby for you. You enjoy the tweaking and tinkering. Heck, its a new hobby, but I do too. Some people just want great sounding music. Different goals for different people.

This isn't about people being lazy. This is about people having different priorities in life. And that's what makes the world such a beautiful place.

 

[Joey_V]

You all know such an incredible amount about this stuff. Its a hobby for you. You enjoy the tweaking and tinkering. Heck, its a new hobby, but I do too. Some people just want great sounding music. Different goals for different people.

This isn't about people being lazy. This is about people having different priorities in life. And that's what makes the world such a beautiful place.

Exactly my point.

 

[amey01]

I am amazed at these types of posts I see on a daily basis....

Over, and over, and over, I continually see posts on audio forums from people looking for a recommendation of which component to purchase. Now, I know I have asked what others think, as we all like to see what opinions are. It is not the posts in general that amaze me. But it seems to be more and more common that these folks do not even want to go out and listen for themselves, they want "The Magic Bullet" on what to buy? And they are "usually" talking about some significant $$$$, usually in the thousands and not the cheapo stuff. This one of the biggest "kicker in the pants" for me": "I have $10k to spend, what amp should I buy???" Well, give me $1k and I will tell you what to buy

I wonder if these same people purchase their cars and homes with the same thought processes??? Do these people have so much income available to them that it does not really matter???

It is hard for me to imagine purchasing something worth thousands of dollars and baseing it solely on a post in a public internet forum without knowing the user, their preferences, likes or dislikes, or even the environment and setup which they base their decision on.

I think there needs to be a distinction between people who do this to narrow down choices and people who genuinely want a silver bullet.

I think most people who do this are doing it to narrow down choices. Contray to what a lot of people say, there is stacks of choice out there. Even if you've narrowed your choice down to a valve amplifier, you've still got a plethora of SET, OTL, Push-Pull and hybrids out there to choose from. There is no way anyone could listen to everything, so they must first get in the ballpark.

Just as you ask if people do that with houses, my answer is YES! If I were moving to Chicago or Tampa Bay or wherever else I had no idea about, I'd certainly go to an agent and say "I've got $700,000 to spend and I want a good area with ....... - what areas should I look in / what do you suggest". I certainly wouldn't personally inspect every house available.

But of course, the final decision would come down to me. Just like these people - they want suggestions of equipment to listen to, they want to hear about good experiences / bad experiences, etc.

 

[David Matz]

Passion to try yourself or trust your dealer to build a system that will make you cry

Here's the problem:

If I want to know which amp sounds best with my Logans, how do I reallly decide? At higher price points, a lot of things sound pretty good. When shopping, how much of the "great sound" is the room, the speaker cables, the preamp, or the amp? How many guys bought their high end Logans at Tweeter and then brought them home and are listening through their Yamaha and radio shack cables? They would be much better off getting lesser speakers and better electronics. The biggest hurdle is that when choosing components, I can't realistically haul Levinson monoblocks and Mac and Ayre and Audio Research and BAT to my house at the same time and do A/B tests, but to make a rational decision, I probably should do a lot of A/B listening. Furthermore, I would want to listen to different types of music, when I am in different moods, different energy levels so that I can remember more clearly what I heard, etc. Thinking of value to price tradeoffs makes things exponentially more complicated. It's a lot easier with cars (as the driving experience gets stored more concretely than the emotional musical experience) or with TVs hanging on the wall at the local store which can be compared against each other.

One school of thought is to listen to everything yourself and narrow your choices. Bring stuff home and confirm.

Another school of thought is that most of us need some guidance to narrow choices (such as to try an ss amp + tube pre) and then listen closely before pulling the trigger on our preferences. It seems unrealistic to expect people to choose from at least 50 + sources, 50 preamps, 50 speakers, 50 cables, etc. The choices get overwhelming. Once someone experienced helps narrow things down, it becomes a bit easier.

Another option is to go with one brand - all Naim, all Mac, all Linn, etc.

Another option is to find a trusted audio advisor, and to buy the system he has put together and just enjoy. One can make a pretty good argument that time spent researching and trying audio equipment can be better spent listenening to music. As someone above has said, it depends on our goals, levels of awareness, and level of involvement.

 

[Joey_V]

OT...

BTW, Dave... thanks for the email and the voice mail! I checked out the Eames today and was VERY pleased. It's actually better than I thought as the headrest doesnt reach my ears and thus does not affect the sound. I'll email with more info as decision time draws near. Walnut, btw, looks mighty sexy... or cherry to match the Summits.

Ok... back to your regularly scheduled topic!

 

[discocarp]

Eames oh my! The lounger? What a great chair... Do walnut or rosewood! Its a period chair, get it in a period wood! :bowdown:

 

[David Matz]

Eames is a classic

OT also...

I think Eames is a great choice. Not only is it comfortable, but it is a design classic. It will still be coveted 250 years from now.

 

[Rich]

Guess I'll throw my two cents into this thread. I agree with what David says above. A lot of people can't audition everything and have no clue where to start and so they use the opinions of others to help narrow the choices.

I also think a lot of people just want to buy the gear and not do the hard work associated with putting together a quality system. They just want to spend the bucks and magically have a perfect sounding system. These are probably the people that are most often disappointed when their system doesn't sound the way they expected.

Personally, I like to do a lot of research (both online and in audio stores) and narrow down the choices of what I am interested in based on what I learn. Then I like to pose a question about those brands to the audiophile public and get people's perspectives, so that I can hopefully learn more about a product from someone that has owned it. I pay particular attention to posts from people that have owned several of the items I am considering and can give me comparisons or pros vs. cons of the the different items. This helps me to finalize my decision (especially when I can't audition a product) and also often gets me some great insight into the products I am considering.

Finally, I try to buy used or new/demo for a really good price, so that if it turns out that I don't like the product after using it for awhile, I can re-sell it without much loss and move on to something better. Having said that, the only pieces of audio gear I have ever felt the need to sell were my Def. Tech speakers. So I guess this process is working pretty good for me.