Rent or Buy?

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By the way, if more and more people are being shut out of the home buying market, then shouldn't that result in an increase in renters and an accompanying jump in rental prices? This could make renting a more expensive alternative than it has been. Another factor to consider. Great discussion everyone.

Rich,
Right on the last count
Nice to see the different perspectives.
and as an owner of numerous rental properties, life is good.

But I've always been interested in the quality of the renter rather than trying to get the highest possible rent. I'm content to get just enough rent to cover all my expenses and build my wealth through the increase in equity with appreciation and making the monthly mortgage payment.
 
Where I think the difference in opinion lies, is that I don't think home prices are very depressed now vs what they would have been at a normal rate of growth. Depressed a little bit off of the massive growth that occured since 2000? Certainly...but still significantly overvalued from a long term growth perspective.

My main point is that most of this can be figured out as a relatively straightforward math problem. Making generalizations (as I've been doing as well) is only so helpful, and really shouldn't be the basis for him making a decision.

Find a house you like, and an apartment you like...calculate the fees associated with both, and do the calculation. The one point of contention here is the growth rate of the market...but that's a single variable. You can calculate the same formula, then assume multiple growth rate scenarios, and see what the outcome looks like for each. Attach a percentage of perceived likelihood to each scenario, and calculate your average return. Easy enough. Apply your risk preferences to see if the possibility of losing money is worth the possibility of making some...or if you'd rather know you're going to put a certain amount down on rent without risk due to market factors. Your leverage ratio is going to be massively reduced now, as well, since you're required to put down a lot more money than you were before...so it needs to be considered when looking at overall return.

Remember too that he said that he's looking at probably a MAX of 4 years...potentially quite a bit less. That just screams rent to me. If he was talking a minimum of 3-4, and potentially much more...it'd start to make a lot more sense.

As much as this discussion IS interesting, without specific scenarios to do a calculation, it's only so useful. If he finds a good deal, I could very well agree that it'd make sense to buy, even if only for a couple of years. If the rental market in Chicago is higher relative to home prices (as it is in some parts of the country...college towns, etc.) then buying would make more sense as well. But that'll take some research to figure out.

As for your final comment, rich, yes...the increase in demand, as well as the rising home prices should both affect rent prices...but, one of the main factors outside of pure demand that caused the housing bubble, was that with the lending market as it was, the housing market because much closer to an equity market than it was to the real estate market that we know. People were not paying the prices that they were for houses because they thought it was suddenly actually worth that much more to them to live in a house than it had 2 years before...but rather, they were sure, with the growth rates what they were, and with no equity required from them at all...that they could make a huge return on their investment. So, the housing market followed something closer to an equity boom/bust cycle than a standard real estate cycle...and since the rental market didn't offer that same choice to consumers, it didn't suffer the same effect. So, while the housing purchase market is forced back to its normal model, it will have to readjust to take that fact into account, much like a dot com stock would have back in the 90s...with the advantage that there is actually inherent value in the real estate. So, while the growth rate of the rental market has more accurately followed the consumer's propensity to consume housing (because it didn't have the ROI effect)...I feel it's more likely that the purchase market will close the gap towards the rental market, rather than the other way around. But that' s just my opinion.


So, in summary...depending on the market, and your preferences, either one has the potential to be the right option...but there is a lot more information necessary to find that out. I'd be happy to help you figure it out if you're interested in looking at it like that.
 
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Iwalker,
Looking at our two views, I see that we both have valid points and both should be considered. I see you live in Charlotte..the banking mecca of the US.
What really struck me is the epiphany that with your analytical views, and my investment views....we would make a killer team...I need to partner with my analyst down in corporate =)
 
Remember too that he said that he's looking at probably a MAX of 4 years...potentially quite a bit less. That just screams rent to me. If he was talking a minimum of 3-4, and potentially much more...it'd start to make a lot more sense.

Good point. I think Joey would need to really take a hard look at it to decide which it will be. If it is max of 4 and probably less then renting may be the better choice. If it is at least 4 and probably more, then he should buy, assuming other factors are favorable of course.

So, in summary...depending on the market, and your preferences, either one has the potential to be the right option...but there is a lot more information necessary to find that out.

I think that sentence pretty much sums up this entire thread! Once again, I think you present some great analysis and a well-reasoned argument. And you are absolutely correct that in the end the decision has to come down to an analysis of real-life data. Generalizations are only so useful.

So Joey, your homework is to do some research and give us some facts regarding real-life rental prices and home prices in the areas you are considering renting or buying, types of loans you are considering, and a more in-depth look at your potential time horizon. That should keep this discussion going for weeks.
 
Haha, thanks for this thread guys...it saved my sanity/gave me something to do while stuck in the airport in chicago for 6.5 hours last night. Ugh. Finally got home at 4:30am this morning. So...that's my excuse for being so long winded :p

I'm afraid I can't make any claims of being a world class investment analyst (yet at least :p), my current work is a little more mundane...I just do my bit and have strong opinions :p I think my recent studying for my CFA has just dredged up some long-dormant economic theory.

I definitely look forward to more info from joey (where are you joey!?) so this can continue!
 
Joey, this hits close to home for me since I have to move every 3-4 yrs for work.

I bought my house outside of Seattle 3.7 yrs ago and am selling it right now. The market is not great, but I think we will be fine and make a little money at the same time.

For the next house, I am deciding whether to buy something for the same price, or step back and go 50K lower. If I drop my 'dreamhome' off the list and shoot for something in the next lower price range I will have very affordable payments. Basically, I would be scaling back my investment in the real estate market. This would free up other investing money (although the stock market has not been friendly to me this year)

Either way, in the next 4 yrs, I do not plan on making any money in my next home purchase. I plan on breaking even (or even dropping a little to real estate commisions). BUT, I will get the tax advantage and basically be forced to save the 300$ in equity each month. Also, I will have a place that shows pride of ownership and not be worried about being thrown out on my a$$ after a year or two (as with renting)

As the other guys said, more specifics would help. But my gut feeling is for you to buy -- but buy within your pricerange. Also, just because you are getting married does not mean you need a huge house. Buy something that will make it through the first kid or two if that is what you are planning.
 
Good point. I think Joey would need to really take a hard look at it to decide which it will be. If it is max of 4 and probably less then renting may be the better choice. If it is at least 4 and probably more, then he should buy, assuming other factors are favorable of course.



I think that sentence pretty much sums up this entire thread! Once again, I think you present some great analysis and a well-reasoned argument. And you are absolutely correct that in the end the decision has to come down to an analysis of real-life data. Generalizations are only so useful.

So Joey, your homework is to do some research and give us some facts regarding real-life rental prices and home prices in the areas you are considering renting or buying, types of loans you are considering, and a more in-depth look at your potential time horizon. That should keep this discussion going for weeks.

Joey,

IWalker gives the best advice. I bought my house 3 years ago. Fortunately I am not selling for another 10 years or so. But had I taken the "real estate always goes up by 5-8% per year" thinking and had to sell right now, I would be SWEATING. Just like any investment, think long term and take ALL ECONOMIC COSTS into account.

Using the example from Wayne above, also add anything else you will do to make the property better, your property taxes you don't pay now, any heating or electrical costs you are not paying for now, any furniture you will have to buy and then trash if it does not work in the next place, any maintenance costs you will have to fork out, etc.... I had a tree crash a month ago. I was not expecting it, of course, but at least it missed the house. I had to cut it down, and it was a grand. I would have preferred to spend that grand on a Depth...

Then adjust Wayne's example from above with your personal numbers.

Additionally, build out various scenarios. Here are some possible scenarios in addition to Wayne's example. a- goes up 10% b- goes down 5%, c - stays the same, etc. Put a realistic weight on each possibility, instead of weighing the possibility you would like to see most.

Bottom line, go through a good decision making process and you did all you could do. The rest is chance, and none of us can control that.
 
Thanks for all the replies fellas... we (or atleast you guys) did have a good conversation going.

I've decided to rent for this year and wait it out just one more year. I'm going to see what life brings to the table...
 
Good job Joey ! Chinese Proverb:

One moment of patience may ward off great disaster. One moment of impatience may ruin a whole life.
 
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