Flowers and Bunnies (and my experience with Logans)

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Now, I took a look at the receiver you mentioned, the Yamaha RX-V450, here is a link to it:

http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/productdetail.html?CNTID=200508&CTID=5000300

From the quoted address:

Neural Surround
Neural Surround™, a proprietary audio format that embeds the rich envelopment and discrete image detail of surround sound and is 100% compatible with stereo content. Chosen by XM Satellite Radio as the format for their 24/7 XM HD Surround programming

---------

JAH ALMIGHTY, praise the neural surround
 

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This compares to Cheech and Chong - it's all up in smoke! :D :D
 
Should I delete this thread and ban this guy?

Seems like a troll to me..



Tom, I like Gordon "PM'ed" him to try a give him some "fatherly" advise....look what it did for Joey !!!
 
Hi guys; I've been following this forum for quite a while and was seriously considering putting down some major $$$$$ on a new pair of MLs. Based on everything I read, I was expecting to be blown away by the sound qualify and hear things I had never heard before.

Boy was I disappointed! I got my local stereo shop to let me "test drive" a pair of vistas in my apartment and I hooked them up to my Yamaha RX-V459 (an INCREDIBLE receiver, by the way--one of the best I've ever heard!). Bottom line, the vistas sounded exactly like my Infinity bookshelf speakers that I've had for more than 5 years now. What kind of a scam are these supposed "high-end" speaker companies trying to run? I couldn't believe how the two speakers sounded identical. The ML's had a TINY bit more bass, but otherwise I couldn't tell them apart.

I guess I really shouldn't be that surprised. It's just a cone vibrating and there's only really one way to make a cone, so it's no surprise that all of these speakers sound the same. I guess I just don't understand why anyone would pay thousands of dollars for something that sounds EXACTLY like a $200 pair of bookshelf speakers. I'm just lucky I didn't spend the money and get stuck with the vistas!

Sorry to rant, but I just don't think there's any difference in the quality of the sound.

Joey pretty much summed up my thoughts and I will expand a bit.

I, too, have a Yamaha amp that is even lower tech than the you have. Let's get one thing straight right now. A Yamaha integrated amp, even their $1500 models, aren't nearly as good as most used amps in the $1000 range over at audigon.

Anyway, my Yamaha amp drives my ML speakers just fine. Will I upgrade to a better amp? Yes. But I am also going to modify a CD player I just purchased on Ebay first.

You see, while you have a good foundation with perhaps THE BEST SPEAKERS COMMERCIALLY AVAILABLE TODAY, you also have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. It's akin to handing your girlfriend the keys to Ferrari 456. She's likely never driven a high performance sports and thus, has NOTHING TO COMPARE IT TO.

You have one reference: a pair of low end infinity bookshelf speakers. This is all you know. The moron that sold you these speakers should have taken the time to audition several speakers with a variety of amps. That is, of course, not your fault. He wanted the sale.

Moving on, room placement and acoustics are vital. It's quite possible that your Logans were not in optimum positions. Tweaking and experimentation are needed. You might have to move them to a different place in the room, adjust toe in/out, tilt them back (using spikes), move them away from a wall, and perhaps move your couch around so you are in the sweet spot. ML speakers, some of them, have a fairly narrow dispersion field.

SOURCE is also highly underrated yet critical to a good listening experience. If you like hip hop music that you got from iTunes-you don't need ML speakers. If you like to listen to a variety of genres from reputable labels/recording companies, then ML speakers are the best choice for the money. Here's where my aforementioned modified player comes in. 99% of all CD/DVD players are mass marketed junk. Yes, dropping $500+ for a CD player and then doing some mods down the line can and will make A HUGE difference.

What kind of difference? This is where experience comes in. You cannot say ML speakers are overrated to a group that is composed of a bunch of middle aged dudes (besides me and Joey) that have been listening to all kinds music on all kinds of systems for a period of no less than 10 years (on an individual basis).

You have the foundation (the Vistas), but you need an education. The amp isn't the end-all-be-all. It's a combination of a variety of factors, all of which have an impact that is entirely subjective.

Let me know if you have any questions.

Erik
 
If this guy can't hear a difference, then he's truly lucky. He can save all his money and be content with cheap bookshelf speakers for the rest of his life! :cheers:
 
It's mostly hip-hop, but I'm looking for a good speaker that can handle home theater needs as well. I've got an 8" sony sub that's pretty tight, so that should fill out the low end pretty well. For this kind of music, is there a different ML that might give me better results?

Ah, now we're getting to the root of the problem you're having with getting the MLs to sound decent. Your "music" is the primary problem...

Don't get me wrong. I've got Warren G and Snoop and Dre and Black Eyed Peas in my CD collection, so I know what hip-hop sounds like on MLs with good gear driving them. But the fact of the matter is, MLs are engineered to reproduce MUSIC, and the signals you are putting through them, in the form of Hip-hop are not music per se, but rather a "sonic product", much the same way that Velveeta is not cheese, it's a "processed food product".

The voices, drums, musical instruments, and even the ambience of hip-hop recordings are so heavily produced, filtered, distorted, and otherwise electronically molested that by the time it gets burned onto a little silver disk, the material resembles real sounds only on some extremely abstract, Platonic level. Of course your MLs sound like crap--you are feeding them crap signals. What you are actually hearing, dear friend, is the TRUTH of your source material--it is essentially sonic cheezy-poofs--lots of color and crunch, but not nutritional value whatsoever.

Go get a Diana Krall CD, or some good acoustic guitar recordings, or even some Erika Bhadu or Wynton Marsalis. Listen to a signal that is actually an attempt by the recording engineers to produce something that sounds like a REAL performance, and you will find that the MLs will beat the pants off your Infinity's, even with your woefully underpowered Yamaha receiver.

Really, trust me. It's not the speakers. It's not really even your amp or CD player or cables.

It's your music, dude....

If all you listen to is pre-programmed, overly produced, digitalised, small-label, "urban-audience", dance/shout/bass-line, engineered-for-sale, being-held-down-by-the-Man, booty-shakin' crunk, then I think it's fair to let you know that you should save your money and take the Logans back TODAY. Save your money for a belt and some pants that actually fit, and be content blaze another blunt and listen you your Yamaha/Infinity/Sony rig. In the long run you'll be MUCh happier, and so will we...

Oh, and ditch the Sony subwoofer. Go buy a Sunfire. You can get them for under $500 used, and it will blow the doors off your Sony AND it's so tight that it will make the water in your bong boil over.

Peace out,
--Richard
 
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... KAYA, Bob Marley LP

... Wayne will get it.
I don't have that album
I know Kaya is some kind of programming language
But Kaya is also a "jam" I believe made in Malayasia.

We be Jamming!!!

Did I get it or am I over thinking this:confused:
 
Just now finally, with a midbass array and a kick@ss sub, does rock/rap sound good to me on my martin logans. On my friend's clarities, it sounds thin...very little midbass (I heard the same on my quests prior to making the hardware additions). If others think it sounds good, great...but I personally don't. I certainly don't think any gains you might get through getting MLs are worth the cost for that genre.

If that is the primary music you enjoy listening to, I would recommend something along the lines of the rocket lineup from AV123. Great stuff for home theater and rap...and more budget priced than martin logans. Their stuff is VERY high value. Joey can attest to that as well...he has their strata minis...and is quite active over on their site too. I caught you Joey!!!

I don't think he's a troll at all. I think the thread title was a little inflammatory, but he's seemed genuine since.

Hope that helps!
 
Alright Tom,

I think it's time to remove this thread....
 
But the fact of the matter is, MLs are engineered to reproduce MUSIC, and the signals you are putting through them, in the form of Hip-hop are not music per se, but rather a "sonic product", much the same way that Velveeta is not cheese, it's a "processed food product".

Bah. I strongly disagree. One of my music passions is industrial. Industrial is way more removed from "real instruments" than hip hop. It sounds fantastic on logans. Fantastic.
 
Ah, now we're getting to the root of the problem you're having with getting the MLs to sound decent. Your "music" is the primary problem...

Don't get me wrong. I've got Warren G and Snoop and Dre and Black Eyed Peas in my CD collection, so I know what hip-hop sounds like on MLs with good gear driving them. But the fact of the matter is, MLs are engineered to reproduce MUSIC, and the signals you are putting through them, in the form of Hip-hop are not music per se, but rather a "sonic product", much the same way that Velveeta is not cheese, it's a "processed food product".

The voices, drums, musical instruments, and even the ambience of hip-hop recordings are so heavily produced, filtered, distorted, and otherwise electronically molested that by the time it gets burned onto a little silver disk, the material resembles real sounds only on some extremely abstract, Platonic level. Of course your MLs sound like crap--you are feeding them crap signals. What you are actually hearing, dear friend, is the TRUTH of your source material--it is essentially sonic cheezy-poofs--lots of color and crunch, but not nutritional value whatsoever.

Go get a Diana Krall CD, or some good acoustic guitar recordings, or even some Erika Bhadu or Wynton Marsalis. Listen to a signal that is actually an attempt by the recording engineers to produce something that sounds like a REAL performance, and you will find that the MLs will beat the pants off your Infinity's, even with your woefully underpowered Yamaha receiver.

Really, trust me. It's not the speakers. It's not really even your amp or CD player or cables.

It's your music, dude....

If all you listen to is pre-programmed, overly produced, digitalised, small-label, "urban-audience", dance/shout/bass-line, engineered-for-sale, being-held-down-by-the-Man, booty-shakin' crunk, then I think it's fair to let you know that you should save your money and take the Logans back TODAY. Save your money for a belt and some pants that actually fit, and be content blaze another blunt and listen you your Yamaha/Infinity/Sony rig. In the long run you'll be MUCh happier, and so will we...

Oh, and ditch the Sony subwoofer. Go buy a Sunfire. You can get them for under $500 used, and it will blow the doors off your Sony AND it's so tight that it will make the water in your bong boil over.

Peace out,
--Richard


Rich,

Oh so true. GREAT post, man.

Erik
 
Ah, now we're getting to the root of the problem you're having with getting the MLs to sound decent. Your "music" is the primary problem...

Don't get me wrong. I've got Warren G and Snoop and Dre and Black Eyed Peas in my CD collection, so I know what hip-hop sounds like on MLs with good gear driving them. But the fact of the matter is, MLs are engineered to reproduce MUSIC, and the signals you are putting through them, in the form of Hip-hop are not music per se, but rather a "sonic product", much the same way that Velveeta is not cheese, it's a "processed food product".

The voices, drums, musical instruments, and even the ambience of hip-hop recordings are so heavily produced, filtered, distorted, and otherwise electronically molested that by the time it gets burned onto a little silver disk, the material resembles real sounds only on some extremely abstract, Platonic level. Of course your MLs sound like crap--you are feeding them crap signals. What you are actually hearing, dear friend, is the TRUTH of your source material--it is essentially sonic cheezy-poofs--lots of color and crunch, but not nutritional value whatsoever.

Go get a Diana Krall CD, or some good acoustic guitar recordings, or even some Erika Bhadu or Wynton Marsalis. Listen to a signal that is actually an attempt by the recording engineers to produce something that sounds like a REAL performance, and you will find that the MLs will beat the pants off your Infinity's, even with your woefully underpowered Yamaha receiver.

Really, trust me. It's not the speakers. It's not really even your amp or CD player or cables.

It's your music, dude....

If all you listen to is pre-programmed, overly produced, digitalised, small-label, "urban-audience", dance/shout/bass-line, engineered-for-sale, being-held-down-by-the-Man, booty-shakin' crunk, then I think it's fair to let you know that you should save your money and take the Logans back TODAY. Save your money for a belt and some pants that actually fit, and be content blaze another blunt and listen you your Yamaha/Infinity/Sony rig. In the long run you'll be MUCh happier, and so will we...

Oh, and ditch the Sony subwoofer. Go buy a Sunfire. You can get them for under $500 used, and it will blow the doors off your Sony AND it's so tight that it will make the water in your bong boil over.

Peace out,
--Richard

ML's are designed to reproduce signals, not music and this they do very well indeed. Yeah, the midbass is light on the Eminem and Cypress Hill but it is still better than some cheap BS speakers. It isn't the signal choice but the ancillary equipment that is limiting his Vista's. Probably the set up sucks too.
 
Free speech

I am surprised of the strong reactions in this tread. It's sad that members of the forum don't respect varieties in perception. Trust your ears. If you don't hear any differences and this is your conclusion over time, don't buy them.

I think this forum need some controversies and dynamic. ML is not God and this forum is hopefully not a religious narrow minded sect.

Regards
"Happy Vista owner"
 
I am surprised of the strong reactions in this tread. It's sad that members of the forum don't respect varieties in perception. Trust your ears. If you don't hear any differences and this is your conclusion over time, don't buy them.

I think this forum need some controversies and dynamic. ML is not God and this forum is hopefully not a religious narrow minded sect.

Regards
"Happy Vista owner"

It's not that we dont respect a variety of opinions, the reason there is this semi-uproar is because of the circumstances at which ML's are called out to "be overrated".

Point being, if you dont power them right and dont treat them the way you do any hi-end speaker.... better not approach this forum with the disrespect the OP showed to us in the first place.

He who casts the first stone....

If the OP has no tact, then we have no tact.
 
ML is not God

Burn the witch!!!!

On a serious note, what Joey said. :) If he had the vistas set up nice (or even mediocre) and didn't care for the sound, that's one thing. But what he did to the vistas is like driving a Mercedes into a pole and then complaining that you don't like Mercedes because they always have smashed front ends.
 
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