New Member - Need Advice on AVR for Vantages

[Michael]

Hi All,

I have been absorbing a lot of great info on this site for the last few weeks and appreciate all of your terrific knowledge sharing and the supportive culture that exists here. :bowdown:

I am new to high-end audio - starting from scratch - and have decided to build out my system with Martin Logans in a two-phased approach due to budget constraints. Phase 1 – I am in process of acquiring some slightly used vantages and I just purchased a used Matinee for a very good price. I next need to purchase an AVR that can power both – Vantages/Matinee. During Phase 1, I will mostly be listening to music with limited HT. For Phase 2 – I will round out the system with a proper amp (maybe a sunfire – I am also looking at butler audio’s TDB 5150 - thoughts on this one?) a Descent i and surrounds TBD for full HT.

Two questions: First – I originally was going to get a couple of purities, but then I decided to move up several notches (to avoid regret and a future itch to upgrade as per some of your posts) to the vantages. However, I had already pulled the trigger on the used Matinee. I am now somewhat concerned about the ideal sonic compatibility between the Vantages and the Matinee as well as if the Matinee will produce enough power for me when I roll out the HT in Phase 2. Having a little buyers remorse here when I consider the motif/stage alternatives and some of your thoughts on the importance of centers…

Second: And perhaps more importantly the AVR. I want a new AVR that has all of the latest bells and whistles to use for Phase 1 which will ultimately move into a pre-amp spot for Phase 2. I have been looking at the Denon 3808 or 4308 (as per some of your comments about Denons working well with MLs) but I am concerned about it’s ability to power my Phase 1 set-up. I have read through a number of posts where some have indicated that the Denon 3808 should power the Vantages fine as a temporary solution, but I have concern reconciling the following statements from the ML Vantage manual and the Denon 4308 manual:

From the ML Vantage Manual:
“...it is important that the amplifier be stable operating into varying impedance
loads: an ideally stable amplifier will typically be able to deliver nearly twice its rated wattage into 4 Ohms and should again increase into 2 Ohms.”

From the Denon 4308 Manual (also in the 3808 manual):
“Use speakers with an impedance of 6 to 16 ohms… Protection Circuit – If speakers with an impedance lower than specified (for example 4 ohms speakers) are used for an extended period of time with the volume turned up high, the temperature may rise, activating the protection circuit…If the protection circuit is activated again even though there are no problems in the ventilation around the set nor in the connections, the set may be damaged.”

I know that MLs can go down into the 1 ohms range depending on music type and volume and I don’t want to damage my Denon in the interim. Thoughts?

I also realize that I am not going to get the kind of sound quality that Vantages are capable of until I get the amp in Phase 2 but I am just not in the market for an amp at this point and want the newer features on the AVR.

Thanks in advance for any assistance you can provide me! Looking forward to receiving my Vantages!:music: and learning more from you all!

 

[MotorToad]

First – I originally was going to get a couple of purities, but then I decided to move up several notches (to avoid regret and a future itch to upgrade as per some of your posts) to the vantages.

You started off with the right decision! I don't think you'll be bothered at all with the Matinee combined with the Vantages. For one thing, if this is your first system you'll be too blown away by the sound to be nit-picking the center channel! The Vantages aren't as difficult a load as other MLs, the upper range is still a hard time for the amp but they at least relieve the amp of the high-current needs of bass production. So long as you're not trying to impress the neighbor's neighbors with your SPL, you'll be fine. If you're still worried about the 6 Ohm limit on the Denon, you could in the short term look at an older Carver amp. An M500T or a TFM45/42 will run you $300 or so, won't choke on the load of the Vantages, will provide better music than the receiver on its own, and will be worth $300 or so when you're done with it.

 

[rockeratheart]

all detials are right.

I have a small denon receiver. I am currently running large Definitive Technology Speakers for my entire HT. I've read the def tec towers can dip below 6 ohms too. Not as often as MLs though. I've had it loud for long periods of time, my amp has gotten quite warm, but never gone off to protect itself. I'm in the same boat as you, I'll start with a larger Denon AVR 3800 series or bigger, and then eventually get a separate amp to power the MLs.

Stay careful and you'll be fine. But with my experience, what I think has been plenty loud, has never made my receiver stop. And I'm a drummer in a rock band without ear plugs sometimes. I know loud.

Ben

 

[Michael]

You started off with the right decision! I don't think you'll be bothered at all with the Matinee combined with the Vantages. For one thing, if this is your first system you'll be too blown away by the sound to be nit-picking the center channel! The Vantages aren't as difficult a load as other MLs, the upper range is still a hard time for the amp but they at least relieve the amp of the high-current needs of bass production. So long as you're not trying to impress the neighbor's neighbors with your SPL, you'll be fine. If you're still worried about the 6 Ohm limit on the Denon, you could in the short term look at an older Carver amp. An M500T or a TFM45/42 will run you $300 or so, won't choke on the load of the Vantages, will provide better music than the receiver on its own, and will be worth $300 or so when you're done with it.

Thanks very much for the info MotorToad. You are probably right in that I won't be dissappointed with the Matinee as I don't yet have that much of a point of reference in terms of high end sound quality.

And great idea to add the cheaper amp in the mix to take any pressure off of the Denon. So these Carver amp models would handle the lower ohms? BTW, should I be looking at alternate receivers other than the Denon? (again, I want all of the latest connections, compatibilities, etc.) My budget is around $1,500 - $2,000 or so.

One other question - is the bass on the Vantages going to be sufficient without a sub in my phase 1 set-up? From what I have been able to gather, my phase 1 room is not that acoustically ideal. It is fairly large with a 30 ft. cathedral ceiling and it opens up into the kitchen in the back and into open stairs on the side - windows on the other side. No treatment options for phase 1 due to my wife. Phase 2 will be a dedicated HT room when the basement is finished off.

So many questions... Thanks!

 

[Michael]

Rockeratheart - Thanks for your anecdotal experience. That makes me feel better about the Denon. I probably won't be listening to music loud all that often and likely not to the volumes that you classify as "loud".:rocker:

 

[Bernard]

And I'm a drummer in a rock band without ear plugs sometimes. I know loud.

Ben

Let me guess - your ears frequently ring for a while after you play, but then the ringing goes away. Well, sometimes the ringing does not go away, and it can drive you crazy. I suffered from tinnitus for a few weeks (and I do not subject my ears to loud sounds), and it was EXTREMELY distressing. Wear those ear plugs if you want to listen to your Logans a long time.

 

[rockeratheart]

You're totally right!!

Bernard: I always wear earplugs now. I hated the ringing!

Michael: I emailed Martin Logan and one of their tech help guys emailed me back. I specifically asked about my receiver, 90 wpc, and big mls. The guy said I would be able to use my receiver, but would have to turn it up more to get similar volumes, and that the overheating could be an issue. He also said I just wouldn't be getting all the great imaging, transparency, etc. that they are capable of.

Ben

 

[MotorToad]

And great idea to add the cheaper amp in the mix to take any pressure off of the Denon. So these Carver amp models would handle the lower ohms? BTW, should I be looking at alternate receivers other than the Denon? (again, I want all of the latest connections, compatibilities, etc.) My budget is around $1,500 - $2,000 or so.

I have a Carver TFM-42 (the same internally as a TFM-45) and it ran my Sequels very well. I have had an issue with the right channel getting grainy, but I'm pretty sure that's from age and not the load. The Sequels make the Vantages look like bookshelf speakers as far as the amp is concerned. As for the new receivers, the kids at Best Buy know more about them than I do, and they don't know squadoosh about them.

One other question - is the bass on the Vantages going to be sufficient without a sub in my phase 1 set-up? From what I have been able to gather, my phase 1 room is not that acoustically ideal. It is fairly large with a 30 ft. cathedral ceiling and it opens up into the kitchen in the back and into open stairs on the side - windows on the other side. No treatment options for phase 1 due to my wife. Phase 2 will be a dedicated HT room when the basement is finished off.

So many questions... Thanks!

I think the list of importance you'll commonly get here goes something like this.

1. Placement.
2. Room treatment.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7. Amplifier.
8. Preamp.
9. Source.

"Amplifier" might be 6 or even 5, but there's a big gap after room treatments as fr as importance to sound quality.

If I were to compare it to racing cars, speakers would be the tires and the room would be the track surface. You take your standard $230,000 Ferrari, spend a few dozen grand on the engine, another $20k on carbon fiber bits, a fortune on suspension, and it isn't worth crap on all-season tires. Similarly your qualifying rubber is wasted on gravel. Once you're set up on good rubber and a good track surface, then horsepower might mean something.

 

[tsmooth]

I started out with a Source/Motif with Monitor Audio surrounds all powered by a Denon 2807 when I got into all this stuff. I never had a problem with clipping or excessive heat. I then made the progression to a Rotel 1080 to power the fronts and now a Sunfire 5 channel that I love and have had for a quite a while now. I think for a HT/music set up, a processor or solid AVR (currently have the 3808) outputed to quality amplification gives you a great combination of sound/video/switching quality. Getting a good AVR in the beginning allows you that upgrade path.

For my money, I think the 3808 is the right where the value/price come togther. They are coming out with the '09 models so you might want to hold out (check CNET). Have fun

 

[Michael]

I have a Carver TFM-42 (the same internally as a TFM-45) and it ran my Sequels very well. I have had an issue with the right channel getting grainy, but I'm pretty sure that's from age and not the load. The Sequels make the Vantages look like bookshelf speakers as far as the amp is concerned. As for the new receivers, the kids at Best Buy know more about them than I do, and they don't know squadoosh about them.

I think the list of importance you'll commonly get here goes something like this.

1. Placement.
2. Room treatment.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7. Amplifier.
8. Preamp.
9. Source.

"Amplifier" might be 6 or even 5, but there's a big gap after room treatments as fr as importance to sound quality.

If I were to compare it to racing cars, speakers would be the tires and the room would be the track surface. You take your standard $230,000 Ferrari, spend a few dozen grand on the engine, another $20k on carbon fiber bits, a fortune on suspension, and it isn't worth crap on all-season tires. Similarly your qualifying rubber is wasted on gravel. Once you're set up on good rubber and a good track surface, then horsepower might mean something.

Thanks MotorToad. Great car analogy. That helps me understand the priorities. I am even more glad now that I upgraded to the Vantages. I can't do anything about the room treatments now, but will certainly keep that in mind when I create that HT room when my basement is finished off (though I know that some people can go crazy on their room set-ups...)

 

[Michael]

I started out with a Source/Motif with Monitor Audio surrounds all powered by a Denon 2807 when I got into all this stuff. I never had a problem with clipping or excessive heat. I then made the progression to a Rotel 1080 to power the fronts and now a Sunfire 5 channel that I love and have had for a quite a while now. I think for a HT/music set up, a processor or solid AVR (currently have the 3808) outputed to quality amplification gives you a great combination of sound/video/switching quality. Getting a good AVR in the beginning allows you that upgrade path.

For my money, I think the 3808 is the right where the value/price come togther. They are coming out with the '09 models so you might want to hold out (check CNET). Have fun

Good info. Thanks! I took your advice and have spent quite a bit of time looking into the new '09 models. It appears that the '09/'10 replacements of the 3808s and up won't be available until sometime next year - likely the spring (only the 2909 and below are out now.)

Among the key upgrades for the '09s include the Audyssey Dynamic Volume technology which normalizes the up and downs in volume (e.g., louder commercials) and other new Audyssey technology. However, they are providing a firmware upgrade option for all current owners of 3808s or up. It will likely cost around $150USD. FYI - here is a clip from the press release fron DENON:

"June 23th, 2008 – DENON, a world leader in high-performance audio/video components, announced today that it will be providing a key firmware upgrade that will benefit all current and future owners of the company’s top class award-winning A/V receivers. This major feature upgrade will add the world’s exclusive new Audyssey Dynamic Volume technology to DENON’s network enabled products AVR-3808, AVR-4308, AVC- and AVP-A1HD. Owners of the AVR-3808 and the AVR-4308 will further get the opportunity to boost their receivers with Audyssey Dynamic EQ as well as the CEC Consumer Electronic Control) HDMI protocol support. Both of them are technologies that are already included in DENON’s reference class models AVC- and AVP-A1HD."

So, I just went ahead and ordered the 4308ci for the extra wpc and a few other bells and whistles. Hopefully, it should suffice for my phase 1. Thanks for your confirmation of my planned "upgrade path" as I move into my phase 2 - adding a quality amp and HT.