What would you do????

[Diamonds]

Greetings -

Here is the situation; I sold a Musical Fidelity KW DM25 DAC/Transport Combo to a person in London in mid March. This is a two piece CDP and it had to go in to separate boxes. He asked they be sent USPS so I obliged. They both cleared customs about the end of March.

One cleared customs but was not getting delivered. One cleared customs and was attempting to get delivered but neither where getting delivered.

The buyer then went to the main post office hub in London and was able to pick up one of the two pieces.

About 2 weeks ago the USPS put a search on the other piece. They said they probably won't have a response for 30 working days. Ouch right!!

The USPS rep calls me back a few days later and asks for the weight of the package and a new address because it keeps coming back undeliverable. So I email the seller and ask for the address. It turns out it was being sent to a business but he did not include the business name in the address (up to this point the buyer has been very patient and respectful of the problem).

I then immediately write the buyer and let him know they found the package so he says he will give me another week but then he wants his money back. I say ok we will see what happens this week.

He writes me yesterday demanding his money back. I call the post office and they say it will take at least another 17 to 25 business days to get an answer (got to love the efficiency of the US government).

I email him and ask him to call me. He calls me and asks for his money back. I tell him that I will not give him his money back until the USPS gives us an answer on where the CDP is because he gave me the wrong address. He then tells me the address was correct. I then told him he gave me names to deliver to not a business so the post office could not deliver it.

This is when I get angry. He starts to tell me how he runs 2 software companies and tells me how much money he has as some sort of threat. He then tells me 1 more week and then it has to be settled. My response will be the same in 1 more week if I have not heard from the USPS but ok.

If he would have given a complete address he would have had both pieces a month ago.

That was really long winded but my question is:

How would have you handled this? How would you handle this moving forward?

I am never sending any stereo equip overseas ever again.

 

[Bernard]

If he runs two companies he knows fully well that a business name is required for the delivery of a package. He screwed up by not providing you with that information, so he should bear the consequences. You did no wrong, so stick by your guns and don't give him his money back. You have handled this correctly.

 

[Cherian]

This is a very gray area? I can see both sides. I will say this I have been hosed by the USPS before so now if I sell and ship anything I only use FedEx 2 day. I don't care what the buyer wants me to do I still tell them its FedEX or nothing. May cost more but well worth it. Most people buying high ticket items are willing to pay for this as well. Just my $0.02.

 

[Diamonds]

This is a very gray area? I can see both sides. I will say this I have been hosed by the USPS before so now if I sell and ship anything I only use FedEx 2 day. I don't care what the buyer wants me to do I still tell them its FedEX or nothing. May cost more but well worth it. Most people buying high ticket items are willing to pay for this as well. Just my $0.02.

Everything goes FedEx from now on. No exceptions!!! Accept frieght then it goes Pilot Air.

 

[Rich]

How would have you handled this? How would you handle this moving forward?

I would tell him that I will refund his money as soon as I receive both pieces back from him.

Since he is the intended recipient of the package that is not being delivered, it seems like he could be a little more aggressive on dealing with the USPS delivery system on his end to find out where his package is and why it isn't being delivered.

I'm with you. I wouldn't go through the hassle of shipping gear overseas. Too many potential problems to deal with.

 

[amey01]

It all gets very grey.....

My $0.02:

* Make sure you have EVERYTHING documented.
* Stick to your preferred route
* Remind the other guy that there are procedures to be followed in these instances - it is not plesant for either.
* In future, carry out transactions IN PERSON. Yes, it can be tempting to use the internet, and even for small items preferable, but for something as large and expensive as top-of-the-range MF audio equipment, do it in person as pickup / COD.

 

[Brad225]

Your purchaser requested the method of shipping USPS. He apparently didn't provide a proper address to you.
The USPS is usually always cheaper for shipping but their tracking has not always been dependable in my experience with them.
If in his 2 businesses he has never had a problem with a delivery it would be surprising.
I doubt he returns payment to companies that order his product and can't take delivery due to incorrect addresses.
Did he use USPS so as to not part with some of his vast money?
It seems you have tried to and continue to help him to solve the problem.
I sympathise with him, but this is some of the risk we all run as a purchaser of any product that you don't put your hands on in a store.
Is it understandably that he is frustrated? Yes. Is it your fault? No.
I don't think you are obligated to refund his money. If you chose to, it certainly would not be until the equipment is returned to you and is in the same condition as when you shipped it.

 

[amey01]

For everyone's benefit, I thought I'd put my take on these internet transactions.

Of course, your experience may be different, especially being in a larger market (ie. US, europe, almost anywhere other than Australia).

I have bought on eBay and the like. I have also sold equipment, but always COD.

Of course, it is tempting to ship anywhere - it expands your market - and page 1 of any economics book (supply and demand) will tell you that if you increase the size of your market (more demand) you will achieve a greater price and/or sell your goods more quickly.

BUT

If you are going to extend your market to that extent, people can only inspect your goods on the basis of a description or little internet photos.

I always advertise "local pickup only" - sure, it decreases the size of my market, but I believe (and have anecdotal proof) that people will pay *MORE* for goods that they can physically inspect.

I recently turned down a potential buyer for an old pair of Monitor Audio speakers I had lying around - he was from Canberra and wanted me to ship them down. He was bemused (and a little annoyed) that I turned him down for $500, which to be fair - was a reasonable price. My answer - "if you're prepared to pay $500 now, I can bet you'd be prepared to pay $600 once you had physically inspected them, and could take them home in your car" - sure enough, what price do you think I achieved (from someone local here in Brisbane)?

Sorry to babble, but just my experience which may or may not be of help.

 

[tonepub]

Actually, you got it right the first time!

Don't send anything overseas and certainly not USPS.
I learned this the hard way too a long time ago.

Here's what they told me back a few years ago:

When you send something to London or Paris USPS, all
USPS is really doing is flying it to that CITY. They then depend
on someone else to hand deliver it to your recipient.

This is where all the monkey business happens.

Now add heavy boxes and you have plenty of opportunity
for more trouble.

I do agree with the others, don't refund the money till you
get the boxes in hand, otherwise you won't have a leg to
stand on! If he has all this dough, he can probably sweat it
out better than you can.

Best of luck to you. This really sucks and these days when I
do sell something on eBay or Audiogon, I always say that
I won't ship outside of the continental US in BIG BOLD LETTERS
and I still get someone wanting me to ship to Australia or something.

For what it's worth, if you take a paypal payment from someone out
of the US, the fee is DOUBLE! Learned that one the hard way too!

Again, best of luck. I hope the shipping Gods are with you....

 

[Diamonds]

This CDP is still not resolved. This is a recent email was sent to me.

You (I was on vacation) are not answering my calls and I am getting nervous.I have been very nice so far but I will never ever give up no matter what it takes and even if I have to leave tons of money on the table. I will recruit an army of lawyers and make sure we publish this info about your attitude here and everywhere.

Believe me, we 'd better find a solution

 

[Joey_V]

Dennis,

Best of luck, you're a good person I know from our encounters. He's at fault, but anger clouds responsibility. I think he's being unreasonable.

From now on, don't do international business.

 

[tonepub]

This CDP is still not resolved. This is a recent email was sent to me.

You (I was on vacation) are not answering my calls and I am getting nervous.I have been very nice so far but I will never ever give up no matter what it takes and even if I have to leave tons of money on the table. I will recruit an army of lawyers and make sure we publish this info about your attitude here and everywhere.

Believe me, we 'd better find a solution

Geez, this guy is a butthole!

What is he going to do to you "with an army of lawyers..."

This is the tip off that this guy is full of it. If he had even one
good lawyer, they would advise him that he has to follow some
kind of due process.

If you are at the mercy of the shipper, there is only so much
you can do while waiting for them to do their thing.

Again, my heart goes out to you on this one. Guys like
this can really make your life miserable.

Best of luck!!

 

[kwr]

From the other guys point of view he still does not have the goods - owning two software businesses means little potentially in terms of business involvement and I suspect that this guy has little experience on several counts. He has bought an expensive item over the net, failed to give a correct address and clearly has no idea what an army of lawyers cost - more than the product he is attempting to purchase.

Stick with it, stay patient, keep all documentation and file notes - in the event of a lawyer contacting you there are no problems as a series of rational communications with them will take time and give time for the package to turn up.

I presume if the delivery service has lost or damaged this item that it was insured.

Kevin

 

[the-chauffeur]

Apologies if I'm speaking out of turn here, but my guess is that it's not USPS who is/are at fault - it's probably the Royal Mail this end. And the thirty day trace/waiting period? That's the Royal Mail, too.

What generally happens is this - you post in the US, and USPS take control up to the parcel(s). After being checked to make sure the contents are safe to ship (non-explosive/non-toxic etc), the boxes leave the US and arrive in the UK, where they're passed to customs (IIRC they go via a special sorting office in somewhere called Mount Pleasant in London).

UK customs calculate VAT/import duty/handling charges/whatever and then hand everything over to the Royal Mail. RM are the delivery end service provider, and are also responsible for collecting the customs fees.

For domestic UK deliveries, RM quote a couple of days for standard first class items, longer for second. However, RM will only any notifications of loss for something like fifteen working days - effectively three weeks - after postage. They will then investigate and (hopefully) determine the whereabouts of the boxes.

There is another tier of service, where parcels can be traced/tracked by a recorded-delivery number - I'm assuming you've got something like this your end. I couldn't quite work out whether you've had a look yet or not, but it might be worth getting onto the Royal Mail website - and see if you can't look up the package whereabouts.

As far as the delay, I can understand the buyer's frustration - and given the value of the items you've sold/he's bought, I think I'd be inclined to be a bit twitchy if they didn't show up, too. But it sounds like he really hasn't helped by not adding a business name - not so much of a problem in a one business building, but if (as many in London are) it's a shared premises, he's made life unnecessarily difficult for everyone.

Anyways, as long as you have proof of posting, and you've insured the boxes (he says), one way and another, things should work themselves out...eventually.

And we're not all like that over here........honest.

 

[the-chauffeur]

Sorry - IGNORE THE ABOVE POST - I got cut off whilst editing it, so I'll try again...

(Tom - can you delete the one above? Thanks)

Apologies if I'm speaking out of turn here, but my guess is that it's not USPS who is/are at fault - it's probably the Royal Mail this end. And the thirty day trace/waiting period? That's the Royal Mail, too.

What generally happens is this - you post in the US, and USPS take control up to the parcel(s). After being checked to make sure the contents are safe to ship (non-explosive/non-toxic etc), the boxes leave the US and arrive in the UK, where they're passed to customs (IIRC they go via a special sorting office in somewhere called Mount Pleasant in London).

UK customs calculate VAT/import duty/handling charges/whatever and then hand everything over to the Royal Mail. RM are the delivery end service provider, and are also responsible for collecting the customs fees.

For domestic UK deliveries, RM quote a couple of days for standard first class items, longer for second. However, RM will only any notifications of loss for something like fifteen working days - effectively three weeks - after postage. They will then investigate and (hopefully) determine the whereabouts of the boxes.

There is another tier of service, where parcels can be traced/tracked by a recorded-delivery number - I'm assuming you've got something like this your end. I couldn't quite work out whether you've had a look yet or not, but it might be worth getting onto the Royal Mail website - and see if you can't look up the package whereabouts.

As far as the delay, I can understand the buyer's frustration - and given the value of the items you've sold/he's bought, I think I'd be inclined to be a bit twitchy if they didn't show up, too. But it sounds like he really hasn't helped by not adding a business name - not so much of a problem in a one business building, but if (as many in London are) it's a shared premises, he's made life unnecessarily difficult for everyone. Before anyone gets lawyers involved, encourage the buyer to see what he can find out at the UK end - and make he understands the Royal Mail lost post procedures. With any luck, once he can see for himself that you've done everything you can he'll calm down. And no, don't refund anything until all other avenues have been exhausted.

Unfortunately, your predicament is doubly difficult because the buyer needs both boxes - either that, or you need both back. This is where you might have to make a tough decision with regard to what kind of refund you might be prepared to offer. As far as the lost box goes, you'd better make it clear to the buyer that you are more than happy to refund money to him, but only if you're had the item returned by Royal Mail as having been undelivered or insurance has paid out. Either way, you may then need to work something out with the other party, especially if he only receives one box.

Again, it's likely to be a very frustrating process for both of you, but keep contact cordial and communication lines open as long as possible. Just becase one party is acting in a juvenile manner doesn't mean that the other should respond in kind. Don't forget, there are plenty of human interactions in the chain, and they're always the most unreliable elements of any supposedly mechanised system. It only takes one to go slightly wrong.

Anyways, as long as you have proof of posting, and you've insured the boxes (he says), one way and another, things should work themselves out...eventually.

And we're not all like that over here........honest.

 

[amey01]

International business is not the issue, it is an incorrect address provided by the recipient.

Regardless - as I said earlier - just ensure you have everything documented and a comprehensive "paper-trail".

Just out of interest, did he specify or otherwise insurance on the shipment?

 

[Diamonds]

Apologies if I'm speaking out of turn here, but my guess is that it's not USPS who is/are at fault - it's probably the Royal Mail this end. And the thirty day trace/waiting period? That's the Royal Mail, too.

What generally happens is this - you post in the US, and USPS take control up to the parcel(s). After being checked to make sure the contents are safe to ship (non-explosive/non-toxic etc), the boxes leave the US and arrive in the UK, where they're passed to customs (IIRC they go via a special sorting office in somewhere called Mount Pleasant in London).

UK customs calculate VAT/import duty/handling charges/whatever and then hand everything over to the Royal Mail. RM are the delivery end service provider, and are also responsible for collecting the customs fees.

For domestic UK deliveries, RM quote a couple of days for standard first class items, longer for second. However, RM will only any notifications of loss for something like fifteen working days - effectively three weeks - after postage. They will then investigate and (hopefully) determine the whereabouts of the boxes.

There is another tier of service, where parcels can be traced/tracked by a recorded-delivery number - I'm assuming you've got something like this your end. I couldn't quite work out whether you've had a look yet or not, but it might be worth getting onto the Royal Mail website - and see if you can't look up the package whereabouts.

As far as the delay, I can understand the buyer's frustration - and given the value of the items you've sold/he's bought, I think I'd be inclined to be a bit twitchy if they didn't show up, too. But it sounds like he really hasn't helped by not adding a business name - not so much of a problem in a one business building, but if (as many in London are) it's a shared premises, he's made life unnecessarily difficult for everyone.

Anyways, as long as you have proof of posting, and you've insured the boxes (he says), one way and another, things should work themselves out...eventually.

And we're not all like that over here........honest.

You are correct with everything you have stated. The only problem is that the number I have is USPS tracking number not a Royal Mail tracking number. Do you know where I would get this? Your help is appreciated. When I called London they needed this number as well. I just don't have it.

 

[the-chauffeur]

Hey, no worries.

My apologies - I'd forgotten just how bad the Royal Mail's systems are, not to mention the lack of meaningful instructions and help on their website.

After searching about a bit, it dawned on me that an offshoot of the Royal Mail, Parcelfarce - sorry, Parcelforce - handles all international recorded delivery parcels. Click on the link and enter the USPS code - hopefully, it'll come good.

This help page should tell you what you need to know.

Fingers crossed for ya.

Neil

 

[Diamonds]

Here is another good one. Filled with threats. He is a software guy...run for the hills. Come on!
***************************************

HI Dennis,

I tried to contact you over the phone yesterday and today again and I keep getting your voice mail

Dennis, I am sure you are honest and you also want to find a solution to close this story

As you son said and wrote to me many times , I ,have been very patient and very comprehensive but be sure i will go all out to make sure I get my money back

Now, I know where you live ,I know where you work and I will have no problem whatsoever to go legal and give to my lawyer all necessary evidence.

I really would like to avoid that and I ma prepared to make some compromise like keeping the DAC and you just reimburse the missing piece but on the contrary, if you refuse to talk to me about it, I will go to court and ask for significant indemnities

Please contact me and let's close it as gentlemen

 

[Bernard]

Now, I know where you live ,I know where you work ..............

Please contact me and let's close it as gentlemen

Sounds like you are one gentleman short. The guy is a real scumbag. A numer of posters here have said this is a grey area; I see no grey area. He gave you an incomplete address, so it is his fault.