What A Mistake

[theWB]

Things were slow at work today so I decided to pay a visit to the local Tweeter in the neighborhood. I should know better but listening to all you Summit owners brag about the sound I had to find out for myself.

Now mind you I have worked at my current location for over a year with a Tweeter directly across the street and have managed to not once walk in,Talk about self control! First barrier of defense against Joeyitis.STAY OUT OF AUDIO STORES.

So I walk in and nobodys around, I walk into the first room to my left, no ML'S in sight, Move down to the second room and there they are a pair of Summits and a pair of Vantages. I quickly notice the Summits are not plugged in or wired. As I leave the room I run into a salesman named Sam, "Can I help you" he says. I tell Sam I just came in to give the Summits a listen but I see you don't have them hooked up so I'm just going to head back to work. Sam says I can have them hooked up in a couple of minutes.

He gets them hooked up turns to me and says, "Bring a disc". Of course I'm unprepared:banghead: , who knows when the "ITCH" will strike, guess from now on I'll keep a disc of my favorites handy in my glove box.

Sam grabs a demo disc pops it in hands me the remote, tells me to take all the time I want and leaves the room.

Now I'm not expecting to be blown away, I already own a pair Odysseys which I'm quite happy with.It's kinda like when everyones talking about this great movie that's out you haven't seen yet, so you go into the movie with high expectations, even though it may be a very good movie, it really doesn't move you.

Well this was not the case with the Summits. WOW!!!! From the very first note you could tell these were different, these were something special. The clarity,the openess,the seamlessness with which the woofers acted with the panels. I was in awe. I don't know how long I sat there listening, I lost all track of time.

After who knows how long, I left the room wishing I had brought some discs I was familiar with, I wanted to listen some more, but had to get back to work.
Sam was at the front desk and asked me what I thought, Before I could stop myself the words "How much for them in Dark Cherry" escaped my lips.
Without batting an eye Sam says, "$9,995 but I can get you another 5% and get it down to $9,500" He must of sensed my eagerness because he followed that statement with " I can get you no interest on the purchase for the next 12 months"

Somehow reality snapped back into my conciousness "Your oldest starts college next year,you can't afford these:angel:" and I asked Sam for his card and told him I had to discuss it with the wife. As I walked to my car the other voice in my head says " Go ahead get them you deserve it you work hard,the kid can get a student loan:devil: "

Bottom line I will own a pair of Summits someday,It just won't be now.
For now I'll just have to drool over the pics of all the wonderful Summit systems on this forum.

 

[TomDac]

Good Job! Resist the temptation of Joey-itis! It's pure EVIL! :devil:

 

[tonyc]

Been there, done that! Except I am weaker than you WB. I am still listening to the stores loaner pair while waiting for mine to arrive>

 

[Pcar928fan]

WB, your level of restraint is admirable! I am to weak to do something like that!

 

[risabet]

Good man, having no desire to be single it'll be a CDIH before I spend 10K w/o talking to my wife. We've already agreed on up to $5500 for a TT. Another 10-12K, I don't think so.

 

[wink]

Bottom line is: the only good decision, is the one that's made.:meditate:

 

[lugano]

I quickly notice the Summits are not plugged in or wired.........From the very first note you could tell these were different, these were something special. The clarity,the openess,the seamlessness with which the woofers acted with the panels. I was in awe.

Not even connected, eh ? I bet that they weren't even broke-in... immagine the sound after a week :devil:

Anyway, when Joey will sell his and getting the CLX, you'll sell your Odysseys and rush at Joey's place

 

[Robin]

Great Story...

TheWB,

Excellent!

Sometimes resistance is futile, the urge to up-grade :devil: can overwhelm many audiophiles as "The Kid" - our gracious, fun loving poster boy - is happy-go-lucky living proof... but seriously, you were good :angel: as well as strong for your family. You are a good man and I'm proud of you...

I've been saving hard for several months now in a seporate super secret saving account and have only managed to save-up $1.5K... At this rate I might have a pair of Summits or maybe CLX's / Descent i just before I retire...

 

[ScottG]

Well... I made a similar mistake... went in "BUYING" Vantage... made the mistake of asking to hear the summits w/ same content... cried because that just cost my $5k... The sound was pure joy, I'm amazed at how well this sounds and I haven't even finnished figuring out the room set up. Of course if you wait to long... the rumored megaSummits will be out... then you'll have to fight joeyitis all over again :musicnote:

 

[Rich]

Good man, having no desire to be single it'll be a CDIH before I spend 10K w/o talking to my wife. We've already agreed on up to $5500 for a TT. Another 10-12K, I don't think so.

I have to say I agree with your sentiments, Risabet. Always discuss any major financial decision with your spouse and come to agreement if you want to stay happily married.

However, I do have a problem understanding your logic in spending $5,500 on a glorified record player, plus what you have spent on tube amps, power conditioning, cables, etc., when you are using clarities for your speakers. I would think that kind of money would be much better spent on upgrading to Vantages, and then buy a less expensive TT with the money you get from selling your clarities. Not meaning to criticize your decision. I know there are lots of factors to consider and it is a highly personal thing. I just don't understand the logic (but then, I'm not really an analog guy, either).

 

[Rich]

Bottom line I will own a pair of Summits someday,It just won't be now.
For now I'll just have to drool over the pics of all the wonderful Summit systems on this forum.

I applaud your ability to resist incredible temptation. Does your spouse have any idea how difficult that was? Just remember, good things really do come to those who wait.

Also, I am a little jealous. I wish my local tweeter carried Summits. They don't keep anything better than a Vista in stock. And my other local ML dealer doesn't do any better. I have to drive an hour and a half to audition any decent audio components.

 

[Diamonds]

12 months same as cash. Well hell that only makes it 860/month for the next 12. That is like having an extra fancy car payment every month for a year.

I own the Summits they are serial numbers 7 and 8 (so I have had them for a while...really want the proposed Super Summits) and they are outstanding. But if you are not ready to drop the cash then you made the right decision. I think when you are ready you will be very pleased!

 

[risabet]

I have to say I agree with your sentiments, Risabet. Always discuss any major financial decision with your spouse and come to agreement if you want to stay happily married.

However, I do have a problem understanding your logic in spending $5,500 on a glorified record player, plus what you have spent on tube amps, power conditioning, cables, etc., when you are using clarities for your speakers. I would think that kind of money would be much better spent on upgrading to Vantages, and then buy a less expensive TT with the money you get from selling your clarities. Not meaning to criticize your decision. I know there are lots of factors to consider and it is a highly personal thing. I just don't understand the logic (but then, I'm not really an analog guy, either).

I am a firm believer in the source being the most important aspect of a system. No speaker can recreate the missing information that the system is failing to retrieve and OTOH I am currently driving the Clarity's pretty optimally.

I could buy Summits but the reality is that a lesser TT would not let them, or any other speaker, reach their full potential. Not to cause a flame war but speakers can't be any better than the preceding components.

As for a glorified record player, to each his own. I find analog recreates the musical experience better than digital (SACD and DVD-A are close but RBCD isn't even near the quality of a $5500 table) albeit less conveniently. YMMV

PS: Waiting for the proposed CLX as I'd prefer to go full range ESL with subs, Clarity's in the rear surround. Unfortunately money doesn't grow on trees, or if it does they don't grow around here.

 

[Sambob2]

TheWB,

Strong will power! Always an admirer of your system and room. Great gear, atmosphere and very pleasent looking.

The last time I went into the local Audio store I was only in there to listen to a suitable replacement for my old Snell Type IIA's. Only to listen...at the time, Ariel was getting good reviews so I walked into that room to give a listen to a pair. Not to bad but it did not grab my full attention.

I left that room to look around some and walked further down the store into the "High End" room. It was all over as soon as my first foot crossed the line. Dimly lit all I could see were the LED's glowing on some mysterious equipment in the deep. Nice soft music coming out of somewhere but it sounded so delicate and so accurate. My eyes soon adjusted to the dim light and I walked over to inspect this mysterious propagation of sound emanating from something in the distance. The room was clear of clutter, only a few great pieces of gear in view with the rest in an adjacent "holding room" for auditioning only purposes. What I saw was a pair of ReQuests later which I found out were powered by a big 2 channel Classe amp and a Meridien front end. Don't remember the source equipment, analogue and digital, didn't matter couldn't afford it anyway. The store sales person came over and asked me what I thought of the Ariels...what are these I asked Him? The audition continued but with the Martin Logan ReQuests...we spent the next two hours listening to all kinds of music genres...I remember spinning a Dire Straits disc Brother in Arms of which I am very familiar with but have never heard that kind of clarity or resolution...things I never heard before....microdynamics, vocals and instruments locked in place about the listening area in front of me in that dim lit room...WOW! I walked out of there and put a down payment on a pair, the rest is Joey-itis History...

Like a lot of others I also have to think about more than just the runaway mode we can encounter in upgrading equipment...and I tend to have champaign taste which makes things worse yet. But in reality, we have a house and a child and an addition to put on the house. For my Daughter I have to consider the cost of college 10 years from now too, she is 8 now. She already knows about audio equipment and what does what, she even knows what records are!!!!...an audiophile in the making.

I can't afford most of the high end stuff in one easy check, however I do appreciate my system by working for it a piece at a time in moderation. You know what is even more tempting to all of this, the 12 month interest free purchasing. It does make things easier to budget. In fact it is how I purchased the ReQuests...12 months no interest...paid off in equal increments each month, piece of cake...sometimes I do have to practice more of that will power of yours WB. You see, I am entertaining the idea of a new power amp, and cartridge for my aging turntable. What's the secret to leaving WB, how do you get out of there? My car keys have been haunting me at night shouting out the name of the Audio Store...I feel like a male version of Linda Blair...help me someone...the store is calling for me...someone get me a bucket.

Sam

 

[lugano]

The best part of this hobby of ours is indeed the fact that money does not grow on trees. One small step at a time - but fully enjoying it - we tend towards audio nirvana, we build our own highway to it and we can constantly measure the already traveled path. If I were a stamp collector, suddently winning at the lottery and being able to buy 20'000 stamps, would I be happy ? I don't think so. Or buying 2 MBL's for the rear channels and Statements for the fronts, just because I can ? Horrible... It is the travelling towards it that gives the most rewards, not the arrival: one cable after the other, put some spikes here, move that TV out of the way, sell that amp and buy another, share the journey with friends that feel the same and understand you, that's what it's all about, IMHO.

 

[Rich]

No speaker can recreate the missing information that the system is failing to retrieve . . .

I could buy Summits but the reality is that a lesser TT would not let them, or any other speaker, reach their full potential. Not to cause a flame war but speakers can't be any better than the preceding components.

I guess this is where I disagree with your logic. Ultimately, it all comes down to what you consider to be "better" sound. I agree that a higher end turntable will bring out some detail from a recording that a lesser turntable may not retrieve, but how much extra detail does a $5,500 setup bring out over a $1,500 setup? Surely not that much more.

I believe that enjoyment of music is about much more than just the details. The overall tonality, the fullness of the sonic spectrum, the size of the soundstage. All of these things play into the enjoyment of a particular audio setup. I firmly believe that a pair of Summits or Vantages in your setup with a $1,500 turntable, would produce a better overall sound and a higher quality listening experience, albeit less detailed, than your $5,500 rig with the Clarities.

This is just my opinion and I understand that you have a different one, which is why you have made the decisions that you have. I fully respect that and I don't mean to demean your choices. I think you have assembled an excellent system. If and when you do decide to upgrade your speakers, I have no doubt you will be able to draw every last ounce of detail from them that they are capable of producing.

Ultimately, I guess I just differ with you on the importance of the source vs. the transducers as far as a percentage of the overall system budget. I think you get much more bang for the buck by spending more on preamp/amp combo and speakers than on the source component.

It is kind of a chicken or egg sort of thing. On the one hand, you believe a higher quality speaker cannot replay information that a lower quality source isn't able to retrieve; On the other hand, I believe that a lower quality speaker isn't even able to accurately replay all of the information that is coming from a lower quality source, so what good is feeding it more information from a higher quality source. Until you have a transducer that is capable of rendering all of the dynamics, tonal range and soundstage presented by a less expensive source, why upgrade to a more capable source?

OK, I have beat this thing to death and I apologize for hijacking the thread. I am not trying to prove my point because I don't think there is any point to be proved. My logic doesn't make any more sense than your logic -- they are just different ways of looking at the same thing. I am really just interested in having the discussion and in understanding other people's perspectives. I appreciate you sharing your opinions and listening to mine.

 

[Charliemike]

I guess this is where I disagree with your logic. Ultimately, it all comes down to what you consider to be "better" sound. I agree that a higher end turntable will bring out some detail from a recording that a lesser turntable may not retrieve, but how much extra detail does a $5,500 setup bring out over a $1,500 setup? Surely not that much more.

I believe that enjoyment of music is about much more than just the details. The overall tonality, the fullness of the sonic spectrum, the size of the soundstage. All of these things play into the enjoyment of a particular audio setup. I firmly believe that a pair of Summits or Vantages in your setup with a $1,500 turntable, would produce a better overall sound and a higher quality listening experience, albeit less detailed, than your $5,500 rig with the Clarities.

This is just my opinion and I understand that you have a different one, which is why you have made the decisions that you have. I fully respect that and I don't mean to demean your choices. I think you have assembled an excellent system. If and when you do decide to upgrade your speakers, I have no doubt you will be able to draw every last ounce of detail from them that they are capable of producing.

Ultimately, I guess I just differ with you on the importance of the source vs. the transducers as far as a percentage of the overall system budget. I think you get much more bang for the buck by spending more on preamp/amp combo and speakers than on the source component.

It is kind of a chicken or egg sort of thing. On the one hand, you believe a higher quality speaker cannot replay information that a lower quality source isn't able to retrieve; On the other hand, I believe that a lower quality speaker isn't even able to accurately replay all of the information that is coming from a lower quality source, so what good is feeding it more information from a higher quality source. Until you have a transducer that is capable of rendering all of the dynamics, tonal range and soundstage presented by a less expensive source, why upgrade to a more capable source?

OK, I have beat this thing to death and I apologize for hijacking the thread. I am not trying to prove my point because I don't think there is any point to be proved. My logic doesn't make any more sense than your logic -- they are just different ways of looking at the same thing. I am really just interested in having the discussion and in understanding other people's perspectives. I appreciate you sharing your opinions and listening to mine.

Again, I think his idea is to get everything up to the speakers the way he wants it and then to get something to replace the Claritys.

Naturally, that brings into question the risk of getting CLXs and then having them show flaws one never considered but I'd gladly deal with that problem

 

[risabet]

I guess this is where I disagree with your logic. Ultimately, it all comes down to what you consider to be "better" sound. I agree that a higher end turntable will bring out some detail from a recording that a lesser turntable may not retrieve, but how much extra detail does a $5,500 setup bring out over a $1,500 setup? Surely not that much more.

The difference between a Project RM10 $1500 w/arm and my LP12 current spec $5300 w/arm are night and day. Not only is the sound different, as we would expect, but the LP12 is better, and not only in the audiophile ways but in the recreation of a musical experience, the emotion and feeling of a performance.

I believe that enjoyment of music is about much more than just the details. The overall tonality, the fullness of the sonic spectrum, the size of the soundstage. All of these things play into the enjoyment of a particular audio setup. I firmly believe that a pair of Summits or Vantages in your setup with a $1,500 turntable, would produce a better overall sound and a higher quality listening experience, albeit less detailed, than your $5,500 rig with the Clarities.

I agree that the Summits or the Vantages are better speakers than the Clarity's, actually a lot better. Each time I've heard them I walk away impressed, but they can't recreate what isn't there to start with and its not only about details. For me it is about the essence of the music and for that I need a better source to get the information off the vinyl.

It is kind of a chicken or egg sort of thing. On the one hand, you believe a higher quality speaker cannot replay information that a lower quality source isn't able to retrieve; On the other hand, I believe that a lower quality speaker isn't even able to accurately replay all of the information that is coming from a lower quality source, so what good is feeding it more information from a higher quality source. Until you have a transducer that is capable of rendering all of the dynamics, tonal range and soundstage presented by a less expensive source, why upgrade to a more capable source?

Actually, after 30 years in this hobby (obsession) I've yet to hear any affordable loudspeaker (under 20k), easily the weakest part of any system, reproduce all of the things you state with sound approaching the real thing. The reality is that there are trade offs to be made in any reasonably affordable system, we have agreed to differ on where those trade-offs should be made.

 

[risabet]

Again, I think his idea is to get everything up to the speakers the way he wants it and then to get something to replace the Claritys.

Naturally, that brings into question the risk of getting CLXs and then having them show flaws one never considered but I'd gladly deal with that problem

Ain't that the truth,but I too would deal with that if (when?) it happens.

 

[Rich]

The reality is that their are trade offs to be made in any reasonably affordable system, we have agreed to differ on where those trade-offs should be made.

Very well spoken. I appreciate your insight. I look forward to someday getting the opportunity to listen to a source as capable as your analog setup.