Vantages... Erik's trip to Tweeters

[eknuds01]

Well, as some of you know I am looking at upgrading my 5+ year old Yamaha receiver to something more beffiting of my ML Aerius i. On another thread a forum member told me to check out the Krell 400xi ($2600 retail). Also, I want a new sub because my 10 yr old Cambridge Soundworks (stop laughing) sub sounds more like a high school bass drum than a powered subwoofer. Actually I've heard better bass from my moron neighbor's '88 Camaro. Well you can sort of hear the bass inbetween the annoying trunk rattling.

But I digress...

Anyway, I have never been in a Tweeter store before. As I walk into Tweeter, there are, of course, 9500 different flat screen TVs. I thought I was on a tour of NORAD (think Wargames). They spared no expense at covering every square inch of wall space with a TV. As soon as my eyes adjusted I saw there were a few rooms labled 'Surround Room.' I figured that's where they hide 'the good stuff.' Not because any of that stuff is better than what's on the main floor mind you. No, it's because above the door to these various rooms are swanky neon signs that say, 'Surround Room.' As any self respecting, red blooded American male who's enter a good video store knows that the 'good stuff' is often segregraded from everything else via a seperate room and another cool looking neon sign (often accompanied with a curtain and an age requirement).

There were three such Rooms and I decided to enter Three for the hell of it. Like the aforementioned video stores, these rooms are largely unpopulated and are devoid of small children. But this room contained eye candy of a different sort...ML Vantages and Vistas. I've been out of the game for quite some time and I haven't heard the latest from ML. As luck would have it the Vantages were hooked up to a Cambridge integrated amp and CD player. But just below it was the Krell 400xi!

Normally I hate it when pushy salesmen pester me, but I really wanted to hear the vantages coupled with the Krell amp. They also had a ML Dynamo in there. For the uninitiated, the Dynamo is ML's bargain sub ($599). Joey informs me that this little cube is, "Mean!" In Tweeter's infinite wisdom, they keep the Descent, Abyss and Depth in room Two. I give Anthony a nod and he comes over to assist me. I ask Anthony if I can audition the Krell/Dynamo/Vantage combination. Anthony confesses that he's only been there a week (he admits this after trying to use a remote strapped to the wall like it's been sentenced to death to by lethal injection...and then realizing that remote doesn't control any of the audio equipment in the room; it's there for the lights).

Anthony then tried operate the Krell for me. After hitting every button on the face 56 times, he realized that the Logans were not connected to both the Krell and Cambridge amp. He remedies the problem by connecting the proper cables. Now at least the cambridge amp is out of the equation. He resumes pressing buttons and still there's no sound. I then ask, "how about the CD player; perhaps that is also not connected to the Krell?"

Nope.

Anthony gets everything ready, closes the door, and I pull up a chair. He had a nice classical CD and I must say I was very impressed with the Vantages. The sound was extremely clean. Granted I didn't have much to compare it to. I listened to the Vantages through the Cambridge and it was a $1000 less. If I had the money, yeah I'd spring for the Krell, but is its performance worth another grand...I am not so sure.

I definitely want to visit a true high end store and actually compare several tiers of amps. I'd also like to try out some tube amps, just for kicks. I've never listened to a tube amp before and many people here have tube amps in their systems.

But I can also see the value of buying used equipment. Instead of dropping $2600 on a Krell, I can probably spend a $1000 or $1500 on a used Classe or Conrad Johnson (not sure if CJ stuff is that cheap, even when it's used, but it's nice to think about). The cambridge and Krell amp represented the the only two truly high end amps the store had. Everything else is pioneer, denon, and yamaha. Those are fine brands, but I am ready to graduate to something more refined.

At any event, I am looking forward to Dan's get together where I can pick the brains of other enthusiasts.

Erik

 

[Joey_V]

But I can also see the value of buying used equipment. Instead of dropping $2600 on a Krell, I can probably spend a $1000 or $1500 on a used Classe or Conrad Johnson (not sure if CJ stuff is that cheap, even when it's used, but it's nice to think about).

Or you can get the Krell for $1600 on 'gon.

Glad you got to hear the Vantage! Did you get to audition anything else other than classical? Perhaps something with some guitars and vocals?

Joey

 

[Jeff Zaret]

Erik,
I bought all three of my CJ preamps used. I did buy my CJ amp new.

Jeff

 

[eknuds01]

Or you can get the Krell for $1600 on 'gon.

Glad you got to hear the Vantage! Did you get to audition anything else other than classical? Perhaps something with some guitars and vocals?

Joey

Anthony informed me that Tweeter had an extensive collection of CDs. No SACD, or even DVD audio was available in their high end room. He must have trouble locating this vast collection...he ran out to his car to grab a mix CD. I did listen to some rock songs (Guns 'N Roses baby!) with the vantages and that was cool. They had the City of Angles sound track and Sarah MacLachlan on it and that was very, very good.

 

[Audiophiliac]

I know this much....that a Krell 400xi powering Ascent i will play loud!!!! I had a client (a weird client), who asked how high the volume went on the Krell....I assumed 99....but I told her to start turning it (there WAS classical music playing at the time...the speakers were in the other room). When the readout went into triple digits, I started to watch closer.....it stopped at 151. And at that time, I gently asked her to turn it down a tad....140 would be good. Then I went in to the other room and listened...not too worried about damaging the Ascents, but just to see how it sounded at that level. Still as clear and musical as ever. So dont be afraid to crank it!

That being said, Wilson Maxx 2 powered by a Krell FPB700Cx, fronted by a VTL TL 7.5 preamp and Musical Fidelity Tri-Vista SACD player, playing "Blackened - Metallica - ...And Justice For All", can make it to 88 on the 7.5's volume readout before the resistors on the midrange drivers (all of them) melt. Dont ask me how I know this.

 

[eknuds01]

I know this much....that a Krell 400xi powering Ascent i will play loud!!!! I had a client (a weird client), who asked how high the volume went on the Krell....I assumed 99....but I told her to start turning it (there WAS classical music playing at the time...the speakers were in the other room). When the readout went into triple digits, I started to watch closer.....it stopped at 151. And at that time, I gently asked her to turn it down a tad....140 would be good. Then I went in to the other room and listened...not too worried about damaging the Ascents, but just to see how it sounded at that level. Still as clear and musical as ever. So dont be afraid to crank it!

That being said, Wilson Maxx 2 powered by a Krell FPB700Cx, fronted by a VTL TL 7.5 preamp and Musical Fidelity Tri-Vista SACD player, playing "Blackened - Metallica - ...And Justice For All", can make it to 88 on the 7.5's volume readout before the resistors on the midrange drivers (all of them) melt. Dont ask me how I know this.

Good lord! You must have no less than 70 grand pumping out metallica!!

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

 

[ralflar]

Nice write-up, Erik. It pretty much sums up my own experience with ML rooms at Tweeters.

Regarding the Dynamo, I agree with Joey's assessment of "mean", and would add the description of "clean". This sub is closed; many of the competition in this price range are bass reflex. The Dynamo replaced a much larger Polk (bass reflex). During "seismic" movie passages it feels like it shakes the floor of my apartment, without distortion, which is remarkable for such a small sub. The Polk always sounded wooh, wooh- fer like. I shudder to think how good one of the larger ML subs must be, but one of those would probably get me evicted from my apartment. The Dynamo used to be very good with stereo, too, cut off at 30Hz, when I had Aeon-i. With Vantages the superimposed low ends from three speakers can sound bloated, so I stopped using the Dynamo for stereo. (Nothing a good active x-over would not solve, though.)

 

[eknuds01]

Nice write-up, Erik. It pretty much sums up my own experience with ML rooms at Tweeters.

Regarding the Dynamo, I agree with Joey's assessment of "mean", and would add the description of "clean". This sub is closed; many of the competition in this price range are bass reflex. The Dynamo replaced a much larger Polk (bass reflex). During "seismic" movie passages it feels like it shakes the floor of my apartment, without distortion, which is remarkable for such a small sub. The Polk always sounded wooh, wooh- fer like. I shudder to think how good one of the larger ML subs must be, but one of those would probably get me evicted from my apartment. The Dynamo used to be very good with stereo, too, cut off at 30Hz, when I had Aeon-i. With Vantages the superimposed low ends from three speakers can sound bloated, so I stopped using the Dynamo for stereo. (Nothing a good active x-over would not solve, though.)

Ralflar,

Unfortunately, the Dynamo wasn't hooked up. I tried listening to the other ML subs, but we couldn't figure out how to turn up the sub(s) loud enough to really hear them. I think the sub level on the receivers were turned way down. That, or we didn't have the levels adjusted on the subs correctly.

Joey advised me to listen to SVS subs, but Dan says he'd take the Logans any day of the week and twice on sundays. I have heard only good things about the Logan subs and I also like listening to Velodyne subs. Do you like those?

I have a 800 sq ft apartment. The listening 'room' would be 15x 10 (say). Do you think the Dynamo is up to the task? I am sure that's enough sub for that size room. And for $599, that isn't a bad deal for a quality sub. What subs do you like

I don't want loud boomy bass; rather tight focused bass is what I want.

 

[Audiophiliac]

On a more serious note than my last post, I do own a Dynamo sub and give it very high praise in the price/performance category.

It takes everything I can throw at it with ease. It plays low and clean. I dont crank it up too high...its on my PC system with a pair of B&W M1s and they work very well together. I have no doubts that it may be the best sub under $600. Also, the Abyss is its big brother...and must do everything the Dynamo does...only a bit better, yes?

I do also admit that the Descent has long been a favorite subwoofer of mine since we replaced the HGS-18 with it in one of our demo theaters years back when it was introduced. Lovely beast!

 

[lugano]

Thank you for the write-up, eknuds. This sunday morning I got up early as I have to drive 200 km to pick up a pair of speakers I bought off eBay, then drive back and be here for the ritual sunday barbecue, and having a good expresso coffee while reading your post has beeen a very good - and funny - start ! Now, what I really wanted to point out is that I never, ever go to audition something without some CD's of my own in the pocket. It's really easy to put together a compilation of songs that you know very well and listened to a bunch of times and burn them to a good quality CD-R. In listening to new equipment, one should seek an improvement over what one has, and this is an easy way to establish some common ground to start with.

 

[aerius007]

I had the Aerius i's about 8 years ago and bought another pair recently. Let me recommend that you try to audition one of the Cary integrated amps. They are a great match with the aerius. CJ is also wonderful with the aerius but I am not very familiar with any integrated amps they have.

 

[ralflar]

Erik,

My listening space measures around 17' x 11'. The Dynamo is more than up to the task unless you want lower frequencies. The reason why Tweeter don't hook it up is that is does not call attention to itself, like any good subwoofer should. All that matters in the show room is to be heard. Customers tend to buy the loudest. Those Polks they like to demo do a very good job in that regard. But take one home and the roles are reversed: the Logan works, the Polk booms. I know I am generalizing because I have only heard a single ML and a single Polk sub at home. Anyway, you get the picture.

I have not heard SVS subs. When the time to upgrade my Dynamo comes I will either stick with ML, or get a pair of Vandersteen 2Wq.

 

[eknuds01]

Erik,

My listening space measures around 17' x 11'. The Dynamo is more than up to the task unless you want lower frequencies. The reason why Tweeter don't hook it up is that is does not call attention to itself, like any good subwoofer should. All that matters in the show room is to be heard. Customers tend to buy the loudest. Those Polks they like to demo do a very good job in that regard. But take one home and the roles are reversed: the Logan works, the Polk booms. I know I am generalizing because I have only heard a single ML and a single Polk sub at home. Anyway, you get the picture.

I have not heard SVS subs. When the time to upgrade my Dynamo comes I will either stick with ML, or get a pair of Vandersteen 2Wq.

Ralflar,

I hear ya. They basically had three subs at Tweeter: Velodyne, Polk, and ML. They are all good to some extent and I would hazzard a guess that the Polk subs add a lot of boom for HT applications, but they may not be very 'musical.' I'd imagine the ML would do fine in my small apartment, and it was priced a little lower than most of the Polk subs anyway.

You can certainly do a lot worse than ML. It seems that if you drop 500 or 5000, you are getting a fair amount of value for the money.

Erik

 

[HopelessDFilms]

Krell 400xi

I too have listened to the Krell 400xi it really is a great piece of equipment and while you had said you were looking at the used market for CJ and other gear, used Krells are around that same area, check out the gon and you will find a delicious 400xi around that ballpark....but be warned, I'm lookin at it too!!!


Just kidding. But not really... No seriously though, I'm not looking at it....I think I am more sold on the Parasound gear, at least for this week I am.

 

[eknuds01]

I too have listened to the Krell 400xi it really is a great piece of equipment and while you had said you were looking at the used market for CJ and other gear, used Krells are around that same area, check out the gon and you will find a delicious 400xi around that ballpark....but be warned, I'm lookin at it too!!!


Just kidding. But not really... No seriously though, I'm not looking at it....I think I am more sold on the Parasound gear, at least for this week I am.

Parasound is nice as well...oh so many choices!!!!!!!!!!!!