Speaker Cables -- did testing, sorry: now think it's nonsense

[Gordon Gray]

Synder,

I have no intention in picking a fight. You apparently do.

You'll have to do it without me.

Your posts are getting personal and insulting.

We have a difference of opinion. Big flippin deal.

Please chill out.

Gordon

 

[amey01]

The problem I have with a wholehearted reliance on DBT, is that blind testing is useful for picking out obvious differences, but much less useful for picking out subtle changes.

+1 Rich.

This can be proven too. If I play you a tone - say 600Hz, and 605Hz, is there a difference? Damn straight there is a difference. Can you hear that difference? Of course you can! In a DBT scenario, are you going to pick one from the other at random, 100% of the time? I challenge you to do this if you are going to say DBT is defensible beyond any doubt.

 

[snyderkv]

Synder,

I have no intention in picking a fight. You apparently do.

You'll have to do it without me.

Your posts are getting personal and insulting.

We have a difference of opinion. Big flippin deal.

Please chill out.

Gordon

Chill out? I'm responding to YOUR arguments. Sorry if I have offended you

 

[snyderkv]

Truth is, we don't NEED any of this stuff. It is a hobby. Everyone has to decide whether the product they are considering is worth the cost. I am simply saying that DBT is one way of gathering some information in that regard, but it is by no means as definitive and absolute as you make it out to be.

Blind tests aren't a definitive and absolute way to gauge performance but it helps one make an informed decision when a salesman is trying to sell you on thousand dollar speaker cable when you now know you couldn't tell the difference between that and hanger wire

And I thought the processors do make a noticable difference in sound? Nobody is arguing that. Were still talking about speaker cable correct?

 

[Gordon Gray]

Chill out? I'm responding to YOUR arguments. Sorry if I have offended you

Please reread Post No. 75.

You are confusing argument with an observation of personal preference said in a very neutral, subjective, non aggressive manner.

Please spare me from your future personal attacks and start acting like a mature adult.

And yes, I accept your apology.

 

[amey01]

Please just clarify your standing here. First you say:

tests have verified that cables don't make a difference

Then you say:

I'm sure there is a difference between cheap radio shack low gauge wire and ultra expensive wire

So what is it? Is there or is there not a difference. Where do you draw the line? If you acknowledge there IS a difference between "cheap radio shack low gauge wire", how can you then dismiss that there IS NOT a difference between any other wire?

Sorry - you're not making any sense and wasting everyone's time.

 

[snyderkv]

Please just clarify your standing here. First you say:



Then you say:



So what is it? Is there or is there not a difference. Where do you draw the line? If you acknowledge there IS a difference between "cheap radio shack low gauge wire", how can you then dismiss that there IS NOT a difference between any other wire?

Sorry - you're not making any sense and wasting everyone's time.

How am I wasting everyones time when I just saved future readers thousands of dollars? When someone uses a logical falacy of authority to try and prove that speaker wire makes a difference than people will believe you. So I simply posted blind test data so they can make informed decisions based on reality

 

[amey01]

How am I wasting everyones time ....... make informed decisions based on reality

So where do you stand?

Do you espouse and extol this quote of yours:

tests have verified that cables don't make a difference

or this one?

I'm sure there is a difference between cheap radio shack low gauge wire and ultra expensive wire

Which quote to you suppose these "future readers" espouse?

From your second quote here, a reasonable person would infer that if they want to improve on "cheap Radio Shack low gauge wire" they can go out and get "ultra expensive wire". Is this the case or is this not the case?

Everyone of course, wants to improve their system. That's why we are in this hobby!

[Disclaimer] - not that I believe cable is always (if ever) the best use of one's audio funds........

 

[snyderkv]

So where do you stand?

http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/03/audiophiles-cant-tell-the-difference-between-monster-cable-and/

So I sorta agreed with someone on the ultra low end of the spectrum before reading the coat hanger and monster cable failed test. But this just goes to prove further how blind tests are infact, more valid than ones opinion based on sighted tests in a non controlled environment

The coat hanger and monster cable failed test ensures that even Radio Shack cable could be used and favored in blind tests but it seems people who claim an improvement switching from ultra low to normal grade cables was either because the cable was damaged, old and oxidized, too long of a run or a much smaller gauge. Which is what the controlled tests are for, to ensure those variables are ruled out.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hi Snyder,

Can you tell us what personal DBT experience(s) you have had, how was the test(s) conducted to control variables, what were the results, and how did it influence your purchase decision?

GG

 

[Rich]

How am I wasting everyones time when I just saved future readers thousands of dollars?

That's hilarious. You have a pretty high opinion of your own opinion, don't you?

So I simply posted blind test data so they can make informed decisions based on reality

Really? Where did you post this data? I must have missed it. Because all I saw were conclusory summary statements of the results of blind tests you say have been conducted, with no citations to the actual tests, no explanation of the conditions and limitations of the tests or of the people actually conducting the tests, and no "data" whatsoever. Just conclusions with nothing to support them, other than the comment that it was done in a DBT, therefore it "proves" whatever your conclusion was. While there may be much support for the effectiveness of DBT for comparing components in the audio community, your conclusory statements don't really "prove" anything you say they do. They simply provide some anecdotal evidence to support the idea.

Blind tests aren't a definitive and absolute way to gauge performance but it helps one make an informed decision when a salesman is trying to sell you on thousand dollar speaker cable when you now know you couldn't tell the difference between that and hanger wire

That's true. Long term listening and comparing, the way Gordon and Mike Lavigne propose, is another way to make an informed decision on such a purchase. Pretending that your way is the only possible correct way to make such a decision is just that -- pretending.

And I thought the processors do make a noticable difference in sound? Nobody is arguing that. Were still talking about speaker cable correct?

In my example, I was referring to a pre-amp, not a processor. I brought that out as an example because that is where I have utilized DBT in the past and I was relaying my experience. DBT is used to compare components, as well as cables, so when the discussion came around to DBT I brought out an example that I felt was relevant to the discussion. By the way, no question in my mind and probably the majority of audiophiles you will speak with that amps can make a big difference in the sound of a system, yet you say above that DBT definitively proves this is not the case. I would say that all this definitively proves is the limitations of DBT.

 

[Hocky]

I would say that all this definitively proves is the limitations of DBT.

Or it proves that people need a way to justify their purchases outside of actual, tangible improvements. :-\ I enjoy components and cables and listening to new stuff as much as anyone, but in my experience very few pieces operated within their limits actually sound different enough to pick out the differences consistently.

 

[Bernard]

I just happened to look at Summit X reviews on ML's website, and the first one I saw was by the guy who started this thread. Interesting, since he turned out to be a troll.

 

[Rich]

Or it proves that people need a way to justify their purchases outside of actual, tangible improvements. :-\ I enjoy components and cables and listening to new stuff as much as anyone, but in my experience very few pieces operated within their limits actually sound different enough to pick out the differences consistently.

So you don't think that you, in your own system, could consistently pick out the differences between an amp like a Bryston or Krell vs. something like a Conrad Johnson, Pass Labs XA series, or Jolida?

 

[Bernard]

So you don't think that you, in your own system, could consistently pick out the differences between an amp like a Bryston or Krell vs. something like a Conrad Johnson, Pass Labs XA series, or Jolida?

He couldn't, because he doesn't have the cables to allow him to!

Sorry, but I thought this thread could use some levity!

 

[amey01]

He couldn't, because he doesn't have the cables to allow him to!

Sorry, but I thought this thread could use some levity!

HAHA Bernard.......nice one!

 

[amey01]

switching from ultra low to normal grade cables was either because the cable was damaged, old and oxidized, too long of a run or a much smaller gauge.

So how can switching from "ultra low grade.....oxidised" cable positively make a difference;

but

Switching to anything better still not make a difference?

 

[Hocky]

So you don't think that you, in your own system, could consistently pick out the differences between an amp like a Bryston or Krell vs. something like a Conrad Johnson, Pass Labs XA series, or Jolida?

You have to be more detailed about the comparison process to be fair, I think. A Jolida tube amp is going to be the most likely to be picked out, so I think it isn't fair to compare SS vs tube. But the rest, assuming that they're all at the same power level and not pushed to the top of their head room, no, I don't think that I could. I believe that sighted I would think that there are differences, but not knowing which is playing I would have a hard time distinguishing. This isn't to say that there aren't differences, just that they're very subtle when played within their limitations. I have rolled a fair amount of amps through my system and the only ones that I felt that I could consistently pick out were ones that were under powered and I was pushing them too hard. Of course, some amps (and probably cables) will alter the sound by design and in my opinion, should be immediately discounted as an option. If you want EQ, buy an EQ.

 

[amey01]

I have rolled a fair amount of amps through my system and the only ones that I felt that I could consistently pick out were ones that were under powered and I was pushing them too hard.

Power and SPL are a logarithmic relationship. It takes an enormous amount of power to get a meaningful increase in SPL. Sure - a 10w amp might struggle with transients in a large room, but as for a 70w amp or a 150w amp - there is only about 3dB in it - ie. you wouldn't notice it. To get twice the SPL you need 700w - ie - only a handful of amps on the market.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hi Snyder,

Can you tell us what personal DBT experience(s) you have had, how was the test(s) conducted to control variables, what were the results, and how did it influence your purchase decision?

GG

I look forward to the response on the above.

GG