Speaker Cables -- did testing, sorry: now think it's nonsense

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To say that there are no differences in speaker wire is, at best, a silly and indefensible position.

Actually, blind tests prove that it is defensible

A dozen or two different blind tests have verified that cables don't make a difference

Even if they did, how does one know if the difference is better or just different?

And since non blind tests has shown bias, how can a bias person "trust his ears" if he's not listening? I wish we can get rid of that phrase and simply do things to our systems that make a difference i.e. speakers and room correction

Same with power amps below clipping (blind tests)

Same with power cords (blind tests)

Same with SACD (blind tests)
 
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Defensible?

I agree that blind tests are defensible. But I totally disagree that wire doesn't make a difference - at least not in my experience. What you may be referring to is that hyper-marketing of way overpriced but really mediocre cable, compared something simple and DIY, may sound about the same, or the DIY cable may prove to be clearly better. I have no doubt of that.

I'm sure you can find just as many dozens of "blind tests" done by audiophiles with members of their audio clubs (me for one) who say just the opposite - who say that one type of wire was clearly better than another. For example, as I said in another post, after hearing my custom-made wire on his system, on the spot a fellow audiophile traded a $3000 (new) amplifier for one set of my speaker cables, and one set of my interconnects, after paying $800 a pair for his previous interconnects, and more for his old speaker cable. Like they say, money talks. He has a very revealing system and the difference was obvious. In a blind test (they didn't know what wire they were hearing) with other audiophiles the next week, the difference was obvious to them also.

Of course any "blind test" is far from objective (since the music experience is very subjective), but that is as close as you can get to objective, and clearly wire does matter.

I am speaking from personal experience, and a fatter wallet, and not based on something I read that someone else wrote. And I'm sure you are well aware, audiophiles don't really like to spend money if they don't have to.

I would like to know the specific blind tests you are referring to. When were they done, and who was there, what was the wire used, and on what system?

Thanks,

Gary

Actually, blind tests prove that it is defensible

A dozen or two different blind tests have verified that cables don't make a difference

Even if they did, how does one know if the difference is better or just different?

And since non blind tests has shown bias, how can a bias person "trust his ears" if he's not listening? I wish we can get rid of that phrase and simply do things to our systems that make a difference i.e. speakers and room correction

Same with power amps below clipping (blind tests)

Same with power cords (blind tests)

Same with SACD (blind tests)
 
Actually, blind tests prove that it is defensible

A dozen or two different blind tests have verified that cables don't make a difference

Even if they did, how does one know if the difference is better or just different?

And since non blind tests has shown bias, how can a bias person "trust his ears" if he's not listening? I wish we can get rid of that phrase and simply do things to our systems that make a difference i.e. speakers and room correction

Same with power amps below clipping (blind tests)

Same with power cords (blind tests)

Same with SACD (blind tests)
Looking at those statements I can't help but wonder if you're the guy who originally started this thread :confused:
 
I agree that blind tests are defensible. But I totally disagree that wire doesn't make a difference - at least not in my experience. What you may be referring to is that hyper-marketing of way overpriced but really mediocre cable, compared something simple and DIY, may sound about the same, or the DIY cable may prove to be clearly better. I have no doubt of that.

I agree, I'm sure there is a difference between cheap radio shack low gauge wire and ultra expensive wire as you stated, but not good wire like blue jeans or signalcable and ultra expensive wire.

The point is, If people can't tell the diff between between a hanger wire and Monster 1000 cable than maybe cable just isn't something we really need to audition or focus on especially once you get past a certain price point?

http://www.head-fi.org/t/486598/testing-audiophile-claims-and-myths
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=82777
http://www.avrev.com/forum/loudspeakers/2627-best-sounding-speakers-according-scientific-tests.html (cable tests were mentioned but it's a blind speaker test)

I'm sure one can do a simple google search and find more failed liar tests than sucessfull ones. Ofcourse people will swear they can hear a difference in their home which is non controlled with many effecting environmental and psychological factors like bias, volume level and whether or not the old cable was damaged or oxidized. This is why I won't trust ones experience as you put it, unless that experience came from a successfull controlled blind test and not one guy and his agreeable wife in his living room. These are the same people that would fail a controlled blind test.
 
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While it's very possible for speaker cables to sound different, it's seldom for the reasons listed in the cable manufacture's brochure.

Some possible reasons:

a] Large differences in end to end resistance can cause voltage divider equalization (like SET amps).

b] Large differences in end to end resistance can affect some bass-reflex woofer alignments.

c] Large differences in end to end self-inductance can affect high frequency response with some tweeters.

d] Total capacitance can affect some amplifiers.

e] Total length, construction and placement will affect how the cable act's as a interference antenna.

f] Cyril Bateman demonstrated how some combinations of reasonable amplifiers and reasonable cables and reasonable loudspeakers can ring or oscillate in the megahertz range!
 
While it's very possible for speaker cables to sound different, it's seldom for the reasons listed in the cable manufacture's brochure.

Some possible reasons:

a] Large differences in end to end resistance can cause voltage divider equalization (like SET amps).

b] Large differences in end to end resistance can affect some bass-reflex woofer alignments.

c] Large differences in end to end self-inductance can affect high frequency response with some tweeters.

d] Total capacitance can affect some amplifiers.

e] Total length, construction and placement will affect how the cable act's as a interference antenna.

f] Cyril Bateman demonstrated how some combinations of reasonable amplifiers and reasonable cables and reasonable loudspeakers can ring or oscillate in the megahertz range!

Thanks for the info, but the question was do they make a humanly audiable difference, which thousands of blind test subjects have already answered.

And I don't believe the individuals who claim a sound difference in their home in a non controlled, sighted setting i.e. bias, volume, replacing bad/oxidized cables and or of incorrect gauge etc
 
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Thanks for the info, but the question was do they make a humanly audiable difference, which thousands of blind test subjects have already answered.

And I don't believe the individuals who claim a sound difference in their home in a non controlled, sighted setting i.e. bias, volume, replacing bad/oxidized cables and or of incorrect gauge etc

Well they can and do in the incorrect circumstances! Points (d), (e) & (f) can make small or big differences.

Does your last sentence have a typo?
 
From an old Bruno Putzeys paper:

It shows that people who claim that cables do not make a difference are plainly deluding themselves. On the other hand, those that say that cables should not make a difference, are dead right.
 
From an old Bruno Putzeys paper:

It shows that people who claim that cables do not make a difference are plainly deluding themselves. On the other hand, those that say that cables should not make a difference, are dead right.

I'm convinced. Case closed
 
The problem I have with a wholehearted reliance on DBT, is that blind testing is useful for picking out obvious differences, but much less useful for picking out subtle changes. A subtle change (like more air in the highs, more "liquid" or smooth midrange, or slightly more coherent bass) are much harder to pick out using DBT, and aren't necessarily noticeable on every track. These changes may be difficult to pick out jumping back and forth in a DBT, and could result in failure on a DBT, even though there is a subtle difference that can be heard. I know when I did DBT testing comparing my ARC Ref 3 preamp to my Sanders Sound preamp, the only real obvious difference I could detect was a slight edginess to the highs with the Sanders pre. This was not always obvious and not on every track. Overall, I was able to pick out the Sanders amp's edginess enough to convince myself of the difference, but I certainly wasn't able to pick it out correctly every single time. Thus, I became convinced that while DBT is useful, it is not the end-all be-all that snyderkv and others seem to think it is.

A lot depends on the ability of the listener to pick out the differences. Snyderkv states the question as whether they make a "humanly audible" difference. Yet, every human hears differently and has different abilities to catch subtle changes. Kind of like wine tasting. Is there a "humanly noticeable" difference between a cheap Cabernet and an expensive Cabernet? To my tastes, probably not. But to a serious wine connoisseur the difference would probably be very obvious. So the DBT is immediately suspect depending on the abilities of the person doing the testing.

The other thing, which has been discussed repeatedly, is that DBT often fails to pick up subtle changes that can be heard over a longer period of time with a component in the system. Switching back and forth trying to pick up a specific change is very different than listening over a period of weeks and a diversity of music sources to get a feel for how the system performs, and then switching out the component and doing the same.

No question that there is a lot of hype and misinformation in this industry, and lots of components are way overpriced for the benefit they give, but I really don't think you can say that for something as subjective as music listening that DBT is the only reliable way to decide whether a component makes a positive difference in the sound or not.

As another example, look at the difference between standard def DVDs and high def blurays. On some movies, the difference is night and day and could easily be picked out with DBT. But with other discs, the difference is very subtle and not necessarily obvious enough to pick out with DBT. So you could pass or fail a DBT on the differences between DVD and Bluray simply because of the discs you chose as your demo material. I would say the same is true with DBT in the audio world, but the differences to be heard are even more nuanced than with video.

The point is that just because you failed a DBT, does not mean that there wasn't an audible difference. It means that the difference was subtle enough that you weren't able to pick it out in every instance or on every track. One has to decide on their own if such a subtle difference is worth the cost of the component in question, but obviously for many people with high end systems, any perceived improvement is worth spending a few more dollars on.
 
Hi Rich,

Well said my friend. Best articulation of the definitive validity of DBT that I've read in awhile.

Which is why I've chosen, over many years, to audition "whatever" over a two to four week period, with all types of material, to determine if the "subtleties" matter or not. And whether I should buy or not.

GG
 
If a listener, after long listening sessions becomes familiar to the sound differences between "A" & "B" can't then hear the differences in a well done blind session, do the differences matter?
 
If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it fall, does it make a sound?

To answer your question, I would say yes but that's me.

For the record, if anyone wishes to use DBT as the sole basis for their purchasing decision, that's fine with me.

I personally have not and will not do that. The long term implications for making a decision on that basis concern me.

GG
 
The problem I have with a wholehearted reliance on DBT, is that blind testing is useful for picking out obvious differences, but much less useful for picking out subtle changes. A subtle change (like more air in the highs, more "liquid" or smooth midrange, or slightly more coherent bass) are much harder to pick out using DBT, and aren't necessarily noticeable on every track. These changes may be difficult to pick out jumping back and forth in a DBT, and could result in failure on a DBT, even though there is a subtle difference that can be heard. I know when I did DBT testing comparing my ARC Ref 3 preamp to my Sanders Sound preamp, the only real obvious difference I could detect was a slight edginess to the highs with the Sanders pre. This was not always obvious and not on every track. Overall, I was able to pick out the Sanders amp's edginess enough to convince myself of the difference, but I certainly wasn't able to pick it out correctly every single time. Thus, I became convinced that while DBT is useful, it is not the end-all be-all that snyderkv and others seem to think it is.

A lot depends on the ability of the listener to pick out the differences. Snyderkv states the question as whether they make a "humanly audible" difference. Yet, every human hears differently and has different abilities to catch subtle changes. Kind of like wine tasting. Is there a "humanly noticeable" difference between a cheap Cabernet and an expensive Cabernet? To my tastes, probably not. But to a serious wine connoisseur the difference would probably be very obvious. So the DBT is immediately suspect depending on the abilities of the person doing the testing.

The other thing, which has been discussed repeatedly, is that DBT often fails to pick up subtle changes that can be heard over a longer period of time with a component in the system. Switching back and forth trying to pick up a specific change is very different than listening over a period of weeks and a diversity of music sources to get a feel for how the system performs, and then switching out the component and doing the same.

No question that there is a lot of hype and misinformation in this industry, and lots of components are way overpriced for the benefit they give, but I really don't think you can say that for something as subjective as music listening that DBT is the only reliable way to decide whether a component makes a positive difference in the sound or not.

As another example, look at the difference between standard def DVDs and high def blurays. On some movies, the difference is night and day and could easily be picked out with DBT. But with other discs, the difference is very subtle and not necessarily obvious enough to pick out with DBT. So you could pass or fail a DBT on the differences between DVD and Bluray simply because of the discs you chose as your demo material. I would say the same is true with DBT in the audio world, but the differences to be heard are even more nuanced than with video.

The point is that just because you failed a DBT, does not mean that there wasn't an audible difference. It means that the difference was subtle enough that you weren't able to pick it out in every instance or on every track. One has to decide on their own if such a subtle difference is worth the cost of the component in question, but obviously for many people with high end systems, any perceived improvement is worth spending a few more dollars on.

Rich,

Maybe your right, but if you want to spend thousands of extra dollars based on the fact that you can kinda sometimes pick out edghiness in certain soundtracks at certain times with one cable/amp over another is not a great financial decision and not proving anything accept your ability to argue. I think that's the kind of information blind testing is suppose to provide, which is awareness so you aren't sold crap you don't need by a salesman

And yes we all hear differently but I don't see how that's a variable + some tests have only accepted subjects with average or above average hearing and range from ameatures to professionals. So all your arguments and analogies aren't variables in controlled blind testing since they were already accounted for
 
If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it fall, does it make a sound?

To answer your question, I would say yes but that's me.

GG

Yes it makes a sound but no human heard it, so you agree that it makes no humanly audible difference?

Awfull analogy
 
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If a listener, after long listening sessions becomes familiar to the sound differences between "A" & "B" can't then hear the differences in a well done blind session, do the differences matter?

This is what I'm talking about, blind tests called the liar test? account for psychology. You pick the cable (not blind folded) that you think sounds better, most subjects pick the most expensive one. Then pick the cheap one once blind folded and the cables are swapped

Some remain biased and would remain so even after failing a blind test. I mean if some can only hear a difference without a blind fold, that shows bias in manufacture, brand or just tricking your brain into thinking the cable has to sound better because it's more expensive

Even during my hearing tests during a physical examination, I click the button when no audio was present because of timing. My brain thought there must be a sound because I had timed the beeps but the guy recording the results told me I clicked the button a few times when there was no sound. I have no doubt that others who can only hear a difference non blind folded are experiencing the same psychological factors
 
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For the record, if anyone wishes to use DBT as the sole basis for their purchasing decision, that's fine with me.

I personally have not and will not do that. The long term implications for making a decision on that basis concern me.

GG

There is bigger implications making decisions based on visuals and price which blind tests have proved using the liar test. The question remains, do you think cable A is better than B simply because you knew A cost more, looked better or fell for the marketing/science?

That has bigger implications to me and is a concern for me
 
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Rich,

Maybe your right, but if you want to spend thousands of extra dollars based on the fact that you can kinda sometimes pick out edghiness in certain soundtracks at certain times with one cable/amp over another is not a great financial decision and not proving anything accept your ability to argue.

Whether or not it is a great financial decision is entirely subjective and dependent on a host of factors. Was it a sound financial decision to spend ten grand on a pair of speakers and another several grand on room treatments? Having done that, would it not be a poor financial decision to then skimp on the preamp and have my speakers perform below their ability to deliver crystal clear highs? You see (and here is where the limitations of DBT come in) if I kept the Sanders preamp in that mix for a prolonged period of time, I would pick out the edginess more and more often as I got used to the system and played a lot of different types of music on it. It would be an annoyance for me that would reduce my enjoyment of that system. Fortunately, I have a secondary system that I placed the Sanders preamp into and in that system, which has a different amp and different speakers, the Sanders pre shows none of the edginess that it does in my main system. So even for this one component, the result is different because of the synergy with the components surrounding it. So, even if you did a DBT and found a difference, that difference is not necessarily noticeable or repeatable in a different setup. Which makes DBT reviews by "professionals" relatively useless as far as I am concerned.

I think you are taking your own personal lifestyle, needs, and financial constraints and trying to apply them across the board to everyone else.

I think that's the kind of information blind testing is suppose to provide, which is awareness so you aren't sold crap you don't need by a salesman

Truth is, we don't NEED any of this stuff. It is a hobby. Everyone has to decide whether the product they are considering is worth the cost. I am simply saying that DBT is one way of gathering some information in that regard, but it is by no means as definitive and absolute as you make it out to be.

And yes we all hear differently but I don't see how that's a variable + some tests have only accepted subjects with average or above average hearing and range from ameatures to professionals. So all your arguments and analogies aren't variables in controlled blind testing since they were already accounted for

The point is it is not just how well you hear, but how well you interpret what you hear. This requires inherent skill, as well as knowledge and experience. I can pick out all kinds of details in music now that I would have never heard fifteen years ago. Because I have spent a lot of time learning and listening and listening for details in music is an acquired skill. How can you not see this as a variable? One person could listen to DBT comparison and not hear a difference, because they don't understand how imaging and soundstaging should work to know what to listen for. Another person doing the same DBT with a good understanding of imaging and soundstaging might immediately pick up some subtle differences. Same DBT test. Different results based on the person doing the testing.
 
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