Speaker Cables -- did testing, sorry: now think it's nonsense

[Hocky]

Power and SPL are a logarithmic relationship. It takes an enormous amount of power to get a meaningful increase in SPL. Sure - a 10w amp might struggle with transients in a large room, but as for a 70w amp or a 150w amp - there is only about 3dB in it - ie. you wouldn't notice it. To get twice the SPL you need 700w - ie - only a handful of amps on the market.

Or 100-200w amp that nose dives into a .8 ohm load compared to a 400w amp that handles it just fine.

 

[amey01]

Or 100-200w amp that nose dives into a .8 ohm load compared to a 400w amp that handles it just fine.

.8 Ohm is at 20,000 Hz. How much power/energy do you think is there?

If you're talking about stability, then that's a different story. In this case, you are admitting there is a difference between amplifiers, whether or not they are operating within their power envelope.

 

[Hocky]

.8 Ohm is at 20,000 Hz. How much power/energy do you think is there?

If you're talking about stability, then that's a different story. In this case, you are admitting there is a difference between amplifiers, whether or not they are operating within their power envelope.

Handling the impedance swing is directly related to an amp being played within its capability as mentioned above. If the amp can't handle it, you're going to be able to hear that difference... Especially if the amp burns out or shuts down in thermal protection. haha

 

[snyderkv]

You have to be more detailed about the comparison process to be fair, I think. A Jolida tube amp is going to be the most likely to be picked out, so I think it isn't fair to compare SS vs tube. But the rest, assuming that they're all at the same power level and not pushed to the top of their head room, no, I don't think that I could. I believe that sighted I would think that there are differences, but not knowing which is playing I would have a hard time distinguishing. This isn't to say that there aren't differences, just that they're very subtle when played within their limitations. I have rolled a fair amount of amps through my system and the only ones that I felt that I could consistently pick out were ones that were under powered and I was pushing them too hard. Of course, some amps (and probably cables) will alter the sound by design and in my opinion, should be immediately discounted as an option. If you want EQ, buy an EQ.

The most rational and true post yet. Blind test data also backs up your experience as well.

Here is a $10k blind test challenge that defends what you described and experienced with your amps. basically under clipping, you won't hear a difference, but professionals did hear a difference when underpoewred amps were clipping

http://tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/rcrules.htm

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hi Snyder,

Have you participated in DBT in the past? If yes, details would be most helpful.

If you haven't, I assume you can understand why it's somewhat difficult for me (and perhaps others) to understand your adamant support for this process absent personal experience with the process itself.

GG

 

[Rich]

The most rational and true post yet. Blind test data also backs up your experience as well.

Here is a $10k blind test challenge that defends what you described and experienced with your amps. basically under clipping, you won't hear a difference, but professionals did hear a difference when underpoewred amps were clipping

http://tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/rcrules.htm

Again, you refer to blind test "data" backing up the contention, but you provide no reference with any data. The link goes to a page of rules for a challenge years ago referring to DBT of car audio amps. No links or references to any actual testing or actual data on the results of that testing. Did they do any of these tests? How were they conducted? What were the results? Was it published? Was it peer-reviewed? If you are going to start talking about data that supports your contentions, then you need to offer better proof than this.

As an aside, I think it is kind of humorous that you guys are saying the amp can't be over-driven to clipping or that would make the test somehow tainted. It is not unusual for an amp to go into clipping (especially driving difficult loads like our ML's), so if I was doing a DBT to decide which amp I wanted to purchase, why not overdrive them some to see which one sounds better while clipping? This is one reason lots of people choose tube amps over solid state, and is a key way we distinguish these two types of amps. So, why would you automatically exclude this from a test of prospective amplifiers?

 

[Hocky]

It is not unusual for an amp to go into clipping (especially driving difficult loads like our ML's), so if I was doing a DBT to decide which amp I wanted to purchase, why not overdrive them some to see which one sounds better while clipping? This is one reason lots of people choose tube amps over solid state, and is a key way we distinguish these two types of amps. So, why would you automatically exclude this from a test of prospective amplifiers?

Why would you ever buy an amp that even has the possibility to go into clipping? That is the better question in my mind. You're buying the wrong amp if SQ while clipping is a concern.

 

[amey01]

Handling the impedance swing is directly related to an amp being played within its capability as mentioned above. If the amp can't handle it, you're going to be able to hear that difference... Especially if the amp burns out or shuts down in thermal protection. haha

But hang on - you just said this earlier:

assuming that they're all at the same power level and not pushed to the top of their head room, no, I don't think that I could [tell the difference]

So now you're making my argument for me (thanks).........that is, there are a complex lot of criteria that determine amplifier sound quality, and differences can not be discounted as rubbish.

 

[Hocky]

So now you're making my argument for me (thanks).........that is, there are a complex lot of criteria that determine amplifier sound quality, and differences can not be discounted as rubbish.

No, they can't. But I think for 2 competent amps, I think they're going to be close enough to never matter. If they weren't, one of the amps was majorly flawed.

 

[amey01]

No, they can't. But I think for 2 competent amps, I think they're going to be close enough to never matter. If they weren't, one of the amps was majorly flawed.

Small differences? But that's what high end audio is about!!! If near enough is good enough, then there's no reason why you shouldn't be happy with a Sony mini system.

 

[Gordon Gray]

A simple request for Tom and Dave.

Can you please correct the spelling error in the thread title.

SPAKER :eek1:

Every time I see it, I cringe.

Gordon

PS: And yes Snyder, it's obvious that you haven't participated in a DBT. So why are you "falling on your sword" to defend DBT when you have no personal experience that substantiates the validity of the "TEST".

I don't understand.

 

[twich54]

A simple request for Tom and Dave.

Can you please correct the spelling error in the thread title.

SPAKER :eek1:

All Done !

 

[snyderkv]

PS: And yes Snyder, it's obvious that you haven't participated in a DBT. So why are you "falling on your sword" to defend DBT when you have no personal experience that substantiates the validity of the "TEST".

I don't understand.

Oh sorry I was waiting until you grew some thicker skin before responding as you constantly take my posts as personal attacks.

 

[snyderkv]

Small differences? But that's what high end audio is about!!! If near enough is good enough, then there's no reason why you shouldn't be happy with a Sony mini system.

Hocky stated that "he thinks" there could be a difference. You're trying to use his opinion to state a fact. The only fact here is that nobody can hear a difference under clipping making Hocky and myself correct in our assumptions that we don't think we would hear a difference either. I'm not sure why that offends you so much

 

[snyderkv]

You're buying the wrong amp if SQ while clipping is a concern.

This clearly shows you didn't even read the DBT challenge, results, FAQ and comments from the test

The test proved that there is no humanly audible difference in SQ between amps under clipping. Take that for what you will. You should buy amps for other considerations instead of claimed SQ like build quality, asthetics, reputation etc.

 

[amey01]

reputation etc.

Reputation for what - SQ differences that supposedly don't exist?

 

[snyderkv]

Reputation for what - SQ differences that supposedly don't exist?

A good reputation could mean customer service, warranty or whatever they have a reputation for besides marketing lies that some people seem to fall for

 

[snyderkv]

PS: And yes Snyder, it's obvious that you haven't participated in a DBT. So why are you "falling on your sword" to defend DBT when you have no personal experience that substantiates the validity of the "TEST".

I don't understand.

If you can't be convinced with 2000 plus people over 20 years having failed just one of the blind tests noted above, then how will my own findings convince you?

Scientifically, I cannot prove something to you that isn't there like SQ in differing cables. But what blind tests do prove is that there is a very high degree of certainty that you won't hear them. You however have less credibility claiming they do exist in non controlled environments

Feel free to pick this one apart as well

 

[Rich]

This clearly shows you didn't even read the DBT challenge, results, FAQ and comments from the test

The test proved that there is no humanly audible difference in SQ between amps under clipping. Take that for what you will. You should buy amps for other considerations instead of claimed SQ like build quality, asthetics, reputation etc.

Bull! This test proved nothing. There is no documentation of the test whatsoever. Under what conditions was the test performed? What music was used? What associated equipment? What were the system variables? Were the rooms acoustically treated? Who were the test subjects? Etc. etc. If the guy tried to submit it to a peer-reviewed scientific journal, he would be laughed out of the building. Again, there is no documentation whatsoever on his site as to the details of the tests or any link to the hard data of the tests. Just conclusory statements that thousands have taken it and no one has passed. All based on nothing but his own word. He obviously has an axe to grind, and expects everyone to take him at his word regarding these so-called "tests". Laughable. Anyone can say anything they want on a website, but that does not make it "proof" of anything.

He says that many of these tests were conducted with "large" groups of people at once. How can you have a valid test measuring someone's ability to pick up minor variations in sound fidelity with a large group test? I wouldn't expect someone not sitting in the sweet spot in a room that wasn't acoustically-treated to be able to pick up nuances between amplifiers at all. And what is even funnier, is that he does say a majority of these tests were primarily done using car audio systems! If you think tests of car audio equipment somehow "proves" anything about high fidelity home audio, then I would guess you have no clue about high end audio and are grasping at straws to try to prove your point. What is even more interesting, is that you have ignored this particular fact during the entire discussion.

 

[snyderkv]

If the guy tried to submit it to a peer-reviewed scientific journal, he would be laughed out of the building

I'm laughing at you right now. This has been proven since the 80s. It's like trying to prove my amp gave me more channels on my TV, or my blow dryer connected to my power conditioner made my hair more shiny. It's rediculous.

Again, there is no documentation whatsoever on his site as to the details of the tests or any link to the hard data of the tests

He personally stated details and offered forum members to take the test, but obviously forum members never put their heart where their mouth is. He even posted his personal contact and cell phone number which no longer works anymore since he does not perform the test

Anyone can say anything they want on a website, but that does not make it "proof" of anything

I guess that includes you and your claims that it does improve SQ below clipping. Oh unless ofcourse the statement came from the manufacture and you're gullible enough to believe it

He says that many of these tests were conducted with "large" groups of people at once. How can you have a valid test measuring someone's ability to pick up minor variations in sound fidelity with a large group test? I wouldn't expect someone not sitting in the sweet spot in a room that wasn't acoustically-treated to be able to pick up nuances between amplifiers at all.

the subject chose his own equipment, speaker, source, music, rooms etc etc. He also did home audio. The subject could switch sources himself instantly and could listen to what he wanted as long as he wanted

Just like I told Gordon Golden Ears, if the results like this won't convince you, then nothing will. And I'm ok with that. Carry on