preamp question

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C.T.

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san angelo tx.
its good to be able to join the group again! Been awhile since last entry, one computer crash, one ruptured c-7 disk,and required repair, and L.&R. c. tunnel repair! Hell of a way to start 2011. Anyway i wanted to pose this question? I've been obsessing over a tubed pre. for a while and decided on an AE 3 MKll. Then i found a Rogue audio 66 4sale. since i've been trapped at home 4 far too long i've split my time following you guys and sitting in the stereo room, both of which have brought me to the conclusion that my room needs a preamp, and i need the vast knowledge of the group to make an educated decision. Now that i've been a member and read many posts and threads on many subjects, i realize how little i really now about our hobby! What i was wondering is about the output and input empedence. I know it's important, and don't know whats right. Any help would appreciated! The AE-3 has an output emp. of 560 ohms, input emp. of 100kohms. The Rogue 66 has an output emp. of 650ohms & and no input listed. The two are well apart on price, and the Rogue is used. My Parasound amp has a rated input emp. of 33k ohms and input sens. of 1v 4 28.28v output. which way would you guys go if any at all?
 
Hi ... welcome back and hope you are recovering nicely from your maladies.

Here's a very high level discussion of impedance matching. While it is vectored more toward amplifier out to speaker load, the basic concepts hold true for pre-amps as well. In short, the output impedance needs to be equal to or lower than the load impedance in order to deliver sufficient current, avoiding voltage distortion. The input impedance should be high enough to present an easy load for the driving source, but not so high as to become susceptible to noise.

Cheers:

Impedance Matching

In the early days of high fidelity music systems, it was crucial to pay attention to the impedance matching of devices since loudspeakers were driven by output transformers and the input power of microphones to preamps was something that had to be optimized. The integrated solid state circuits of modern amplifiers have largely removed that problem, so this section just seeks to establish some perspective about when impedance matching is a valid concern.

As a general rule, the maximum power transfer from an active device like an amplifier or antenna driver to an external device occurs when the impedance of the external device matches that of the source. That optimum power is 50% of the total power when the impedance of the amplifier is matched to that of the speaker. Improper impedance matching can lead to excessive power use, distortion, and noise problems. The most serious problems occur when the impedance of the load is too low, requiring too much power from the active device to drive the load at acceptable levels. On the other hand, the prime consideration for an audio reproduction circuit is high fidelity reproduction of the signal, and that does not require optimum power transfer.

In modern electronics, the integrated circuits of an amplifier have at their disposal hundreds to thousands of active transistor elements which can with appropriate creative use of feedback make the performance of the amplifier almost independent of the impedances of the input and output devices within a reasonable range.

On the input side, the amplifier can be made to have almost arbitrarily high input impedance, so in practice a microphone sees an impedance considerably higher than its own impedance. Although that does not optimize power transfer from the microphone, that is no longer a big issue since the amplifier can take the input voltage and convert it to a larger voltage - the term currently used is "bridging" to a larger image of the input voltage pattern.

On the output side, a loudspeaker may still have a nominal impedance of something like 8 ohms, which formerly would have required having an amplifier output stage carefully matched to 8 ohms. But now with the active output circuitry of audio amplifiers, the effective output impedance may be very low. The active circuitry controls the output voltage to the speaker so that the appropriate power is delivered.
 
in @ out

Thanks Tod, for the information. Now that thats behind us what would you do ? I've read good things about both, But i guess what i'm after is which way to turn. I've seen your system and many others on this site and trust all of yals knowledge. This is probably one of my last moves besides cabling and such, which i intend to play with to the grave. I read once that interconnects @ speaker cable are like spice in a dish, and i love to cook! Anyway, i want to put tubes in my system and this seems to be the best option right now. So, has anybody had any experence with either
Rogue 66 or AE-3 mkII
 
Thanks Tod, for the information. Now that thats behind us what would you do ? I've read good things about both, But i guess what i'm after is which way to turn. I've seen your system and many others on this site and trust all of yals knowledge. This is probably one of my last moves besides cabling and such, which i intend to play with to the grave. I read once that interconnects @ speaker cable are like spice in a dish, and i love to cook! Anyway, i want to put tubes in my system and this seems to be the best option right now. So, has anybody had any experence with either
Rogue 66 or AE-3 mkII

I have zero familiarty with these pre-amps. I did once own Rogue monoblocks, but that's as close as I ever came (which is not close at all). I can tell you my PrimaLuna Dialogue Three pre is dead silent, offers great build quality, and is operationally excellent in every aspect... plus it sounds wonderful too :)

Sorry I couldn't be of more help... but there are others herein that have a lot more tube experience than I do, so perhaps more comments to come.

Cheers
 
My only suggestion would be to borrow a tube pre and try it in your system. I know you can't try them all, but I would hate for you to buy something and realize it doen't mate well with the rest of your gear.

If you're ever down San Antonio way, your more than welcome to stop by and listen to some tunes and discuss options. I may even have something for you to take home and try.
 
C.T.,
A few questions you'll need to sort out first...
  1. What is it about your system that you're trying to address with a new "tubed" pre-amp?
  2. What are you looking for from tubes (vs. well designed solid-state)? Is there a specific sound characteristic you're looking for?
  3. From the 2 pre-amp you've listed, I'm assuming your budget is around $500 - $1000, correct?
  4. What other features are you considering? remote control, HT bypass, etc...

Strictly speaking within the limits of the 2 pre-amps on your list, my personal preference would be toward the AES AE-3 MkII. I have heard the AE-3 extensively and have helped a friend put together a good system with the AE-3. The Cary branded sibling of the AE-3 was the SLP-98 and it was the pre-amp on top of my list while I was hunting for pre-amp. Without knocking the Rogue, which I am sure is a excellent unit, my preference toward the AE-3 is due to the following rationales:
  1. Remote control.
  2. 2 sets of RCA output for bi-amp option in the future.
  3. Big tones from the 6SN7 octal tubes.

Good luck with your search,
Spike
 
Spike, At present, the only volume control i have is from my Marantz cd player. I love the sound of my system,but i have it choked down. The THX output of the Parasound amp is set about half way, otherwise, one bar of volume on the cd player will blow you out of the room. I feel like with a preamp, i can get full output from my amp, and full output from the cd player. Iwas considering a tubed unit because my system can seem a little bright on some tracts and i think that a tubed unit will add some warmth to the sound. the only reason the Rogue unit is in the picture is price. My budget is around 500-1000 but prepaired to spend 1500 4 aes
 
W.w.

Im sorry but i dont know all of your names yet. In answer to wardsweb i wish i could borrow a tubed pre or anything 4 that matter. But there is no high-end store in Angelo. As for your offer to listen in San Antonio; a very good friend of mine lives in NB.so that may b an option. Would love to hear another system to compair 2 mine, and see/ hear where i can improve
 
C.T.
The Marantz driving the Parasound directly might be one factor to your system sounding bright. It could be the impedance mismatch between the Marantz and the Parasound. Or it could be the "evil" op-amps at the Marantz output stage sounding harsh. If this is the case, a good solid-state preamp (Pass, Threshold, etc...) will give you smooth, non-fatiguing sound. You should really do some soul-searching to try and see where you want your system to be in the future. To simply put a blanket statement where you want to go with tubes in order to tame the harshness is not how I would approach it. It is akin to putting a band-aid on top of a problem, but not really addressing it.
That said, the AE-3 is a fine pre-amp. If you go to my system page, I've written a few words about its sibling, the SLP-98.

Good Luck,
Spike
 
Would it be a PITA to bring the Marantz and Parasound to SA? We could play around with different preamps, amps and CDP to see what it is you like or don't. Hopefully some mixing and matching will help you on your quest.

From better information comes better decisions.
 
C o l d!!!

W.W. Sorry for the delayed responce, but this cold snap and subsequent "icing" event has played havock with my job as i work for a rural highline power provider. Roadtripping with the equipment is not a problem, only planning the trip. My friend from N.B. was born and raised in San Antonio and his parents still live there, so even though i dont know S.A. i'm sure i could find you. Maby when it's a tad bit WARMER, what do you think?
 
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