Power amp for Summits

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bonzo

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Hi my Krell integrated does not allow me to connect a pre-amp. I am looking for a power amp that I can use for experimentation so that I can get demos of various pre-amps. What is a good generic cheap power amp for the purpose. I want to experiment with AR, Quad, CJ, VTL - without each time having to get a corresponding power amp.

Is there any such power amp you would recommend? For example, if you think a Krell power would work, what is the minimum I could settle for, instead of having to buy something expensive. Ideally I would like to get one from the used market and sell it off after experimentation, unless it is mind blowingly awesome.

Just looking to compile a list of a few models I can keep an eye out for, so that I can pick one up if I get a good bargain
 
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'generic cheap power amp' ...........your logic makes no sense at all, given the revealing qualities of our Logan's and your desire to demo various pre-amps ( Im assuming of respectable quality) why would you be willing to compromise a 'cheap' component in the chain ?
 
I mean, relatively cheap, that will work for Summits. Cheap is relative. Would Quad 909 work?
 
I agree with Dave. Sounds like an oxymoron to me.

And anything will work but will you be happy with the purchase? I would advise you to consider "value" for money spent. "Work" with the Summits is way to vague.

If less than $2K is cheap, two recommendations that I think would perform very well within that price point and that you may wish to keep long term.

1) Odyssey.

2) Job 225 available through Amazon.

I'd try the Job since you can probably return to Amazon if you are not happy. Per some folks at the "What's Best Forum", it's a giant killer. Check out the thread in the "amplifier" section on their home page.

GG

PS: Update. 2) no longer available through Amazon. The Odyssey does have a 30 day money back if ordered through the manufacturer. The "Khartago" model is 110 X 2 and sells for $900. More money, more power.
 
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What about quad 909? Can that drive the summits, and will it integrate with preamps from audio research, vtl, and other tube amps?
 
bonzo,

You are asking questions only you can answer. I've not read anything on this forum regarding the quad and how it works with ML's.

Looking at the internet info, seems like it may have sufficient power but that depends on your listening habits, room size, volume, music genre, etc.

General consensus from what I read is that it is a bit rolled off on top and a bit "warm" at the lower frequencies. Very musical in the midrange. It is, by design, bandwidth limited.

Integrate with other pres you mention? Who knows. Way too many variables and very subjective.

Best option is to buy, try in your system with a 30 day money back option.

You can do that with the Odyssey.

Good luck.

GG
 
That Odyssey Stratos looks very nice, Gordon. The price too. Thank you for bringing them forward.

Bonzo, how about demo-ing some Pre-amp/Power amp combinations? I agree with both Dave and Gordon regarding the power you'll be supplying your Summits. They are amazing loudspeakers, and I think you'll be disappointed if you buy based on price alone. Most any half decent amplifier will power your Summits, but if you take some time to try a few options (like the Odyssey Stratos, that 909, others) before you settle on one, you'll be much happier in the long (and short) run. When you arrange to demo a pre-amp, mention that you've not settled on a power amp yet, and would appreciate a few good value examples be brought along.

(Also mention that you've just bought a flat in London and are now poor because of it and will require a really great price :D)
 
Hi my Krell integrated does not allow me to connect a pre-amp. I am looking for a power amp that I can use for experimentation so that I can get demos of various pre-amps. What is a good generic cheap power amp for the purpose. I want to experiment with AR, Quad, CJ, VTL - without each time having to get a corresponding power amp.

Is there any such power amp you would recommend? For example, if you think a Krell power would work, what is the minimum I could settle for, instead of having to buy something expensive. Ideally I would like to get one from the used market and sell it off after experimentation, unless it is mind blowingly awesome.

Just looking to compile a list of a few models I can keep an eye out for, so that I can pick one up if I get a good bargain

I think your real issue here is system synergy..... Not necessarily between amp/speaker... but preamp/amp.... especially if you are interested in any tube pre-amps... You need to be careful about matching impedances between the amp/pre....

My thought is to settle on an amp first..... and then find a pre that will work with it well. If you have a tube pre in mind - then you need to be careful of amps with low impedance.... My assumption here is that the amp you want to use to demo is not the amp you would be using in the end???
 
I think I will try to match as much as I can, but given the number of amps out there I will need a reference power amp for the trials. It is in my nature to try out everything and check add many tick boxes as possible. So I might get a quad for reference.
 
Just remember the "bandwidth" limiting issues.

Will likely impact your impressions of different preamps.

Have fun and good luck.
 
bonzo, I owned original Summits a few years ago. When they were first delivered I ran them quite successfully with a little Atoll Electronique IN50 integrated amplifier. I then found a pre loved Audio Research LS25, and I 'borrowed' a Classe Twenty Five power amplifier. This power amp was great - apart from a slight transformer hum which I couldn't hear when playing music. The Classe was a very fine match and I lived with this for about 18 months.

Next, I bit the bullet and I purchased a Pass Labs X150 power amp. Now we're talking! To date, the Pass Labs is the very best solid state power amp I have ever owned. It was quiet, neutral, powerful, and I loved the looks. Unfortunately, due to circumstances beyond my control, I had to sell my whole system.

I now own a pair of Montis speakers and tube monobloc power amps. I like my tube amps (which I bought second hand), BUT if I had the money, I wouldn't think twice about returning to the Audio Research/Pass Labs amplifier combination.
 
There's a substantial amount of anectodal information that suggests that a tube pre and a SS amp is a very good, read musical, combination. This assumes that all other variables are under control and accounted for.

I'm currently breaking in a tube pre with my Pass Labs amp. My initial impressions (after some 400 hours of pre burn in and needing more) are positive.

GG
 
I'm currently breaking in a tube pre with my Pass Labs amp. My initial impressions (after some 400 hours of pre burn in and needing more) are positive.

GG

Holy Moly Gordon.......400hrs on just the 'pre' burn in.......how many hours do you plan on needing for the 'burn in' ?? .........:devil:

you know me, forever the 'b' buster !!
 
Hi Dave,

Hopefully another 100 hours or so and it will be done.

Audible? Absolutely.

After that, I'm going to replace the factory supplied tube with the EAT equivalent.

Looking forward to the "end" of this saga.

Gordon
 
Thanks that's useful. There is only one Passlabs dealer around London. It doesn't come up used very often, but I am sure I can get an audition. I will be trying an AR+Krell combo and electrocompaniet monos, bel canto power, with Townshend pre-amp next weekend.

Odyssey and Job 225 don't seem available here.
 
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Edwin, how do you compare the Montis to the Summits?
 
Good question, gonzo. And it's one I've asked myself many times.

The Summits offered outstanding bass response. Man, did those babies punch it out. But I was always fiddling with the 50 Hz and 25 Hz bass controls, trying to get the match right in my room. On some music, which suited the bass settings, I thought there could be no better speaker in the world. Period.

But when playing other music that didn't suit the bass control settings, the Summits sounded overblown in the bass, and there appeared to be some discontinuity between the panels and the bass modules. This was fixed by more fiddling with the bass controls. This was the only reservation I had about the Summits. Otherwise, the Summits were superb.

I think the main problem with the bass response, was that my room is of double brick construction about 6 metres x 5.5 metres and it had a cement ceiling. I believe I had some serious bass node issues which the Summits didn't like. I had a few minor issues with the orientation of the panels - when I had the panels orientated the way I liked them, the bass integration suffered, and vice versa. But I worked out a compromise in the end.

The Montis speakers on the other hand, were an absolute dream to tune into my room. I simply placed them where my Summits used to sit, I set the bass control to -3 dB and I played music. I found the bass was a tiny bit rich, so I reset the bass control to -4 dB, and viola! Perfect integration in my room.

The Montis sounds like a completely different speaker in my room compared to the Summits. They seem to have seamless integration between the panels and bass modules. There is no discontinuity. The bass response is superb. A little bit lean, but with outstanding extension. I think that's where the Martin Logan magic manifests itself. ML haven't tried to impress people with how 'good' the bass is. They've actually taken the time to tune the bass module so that it sounds just like the panels.

The Montis sounds so neutral compared to every other speaker I have ever heard, I have wondered if they would be suitable as studio monitors. Compared to my Montis, my neighbour's Dali Helicon 800 speakers sounds harsh and brittle. My other neighbour's B&W 802 speakers sound more neutral than the Dali's, but compared with the Montis, they lack 'air' and seem more bloated in the bass. Considering I paid way less for the Montis, I am very pleased with my purchase. Just for info, all my neighbours own Naquadria power amplifiers - so there is some consistency in my listening impressions.

It's interesting, but the neighbour with the Dali's suffers minor hearing loss in one ear. The neighbour with the B&W's likes more contemporary rock music than I do. So maybe music taste and medical issues can have profound effect on speaker purchase.

BTW, the Montis goes LOUD! Driven by my 50 watt per channel monobloc tube amps, the Montis speakers can shake the room.

Just some other thoughts... The Montis is cheaper than the Summit X (I haven't heard the Summit X in my home); The Montis is easy to move around; I love the look of the zebra wood option; You don't need t worry about bi-wiring; You don't need to worry about buying a high powered amplifier - 50 watts is fine as long as it's matched by high current capabilities.

Did I say the Montis can go LOUD! :D
 
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Is there any difference in panels, if you play vocals or acoustic? Also is out a must to biwire summits?
 
I believe Martin Logan has done a lot of work on the Montis panels as well as the bass integration. The result is a superb speaker that sounds stunning on vocal and acoustic music. I reckon my Montis sounds better than my old Summits. But that's my opinion. I have never bi wired. I don't see the point when the module has it's own built in amplifier.
 
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