New Summit X Review in TAS - Better than any dynamic speaker under $40K

[David Matz]

I've heard some very convincing stories about audio mags actually wanting money from the manufacturer to even do a review. I'm not saying what the source is, but I can inform you it is a very real and well known one. A figure of $50,000 was mentioned.

Pretty shocking stuff....

Justin, I am not surprised. But I doubt it happens for the bigger, more mainstream magazines.

Also, if you find a glowing review by just one guy in a less popular magazine and there are no other reviews to be found on the product you are looking for, it is probably not very convincing for many people to pull the trigger unless they have absolute confidence in their tastes.

 

[Jimna]

Yes, on a great recording it is probably like sitting in one of the first few rows.

I find it funny that so many compare their system sound to live performance, yet so few see live performance much if at all. And even more odd is the fact that most then claim that their system is better than live sound, the object of the comparison.

 

[Hocky]

And live sound usually sucks. lol

 

[Jimna]

Really? You need to seek out better halls....or bands.

 

[Rich]

I find it funny that so many compare their system sound to live performance, yet so few see live performance much if at all. And even more odd is the fact that most then claim that their system is better than live sound, the object of the comparison.

Live acoustic music (that is, unamplified live music) has always been a benchmark by which stereo systems were judged. It is one of the few points of reference which we can compare a recording to, which is why people do it. I am personally a little skeptical of the utility of trying to do so, though, due to so many uncontrollable variables and the inherent subjective nature of such a comparison.

I would be hesitant to say "so few see live performance much if at all." I would say among audiophiles, many if not most probably get out to see live shows pretty regularly. Personally, I see live shows at my local symphony and concert hall many times a year, plus going to several clubs on a regular basis where I hear local bands (granted, these are usually amplified).

I do think that a recording can definitely sound better than a live performance. Of course, there again, "better" is a highly subjective term. But with a recording, you can get many takes until you get the perfect recording. In a live performance, you only get one take. In a recording, you can engineer the sound after it is recorded. In a live performance, it is what it is. In a recording, you can control the acoustics to make it sound how you want. In a live performance, the acoustics of the performance venue will leave an indelible mark on the sound. With a recording, you can alter the sound with the gear that you play it back with (adding warmth and liquidity to the sound with a tube amp, for example). With a live performance, you just get the natural sound of the instruments as they sound in that venue.

Good to see you posting Jim. Haven't heard from you in awhile.

 

[User211]

Jonathan Valin reviewed the CLX. He loves it to say the least. However, he is not a big fan of integrating subwoofers with any speaker. Hence, there was never a review of the Descents mated to CLX's.

I share the same bias with him. To my ears the subs always stick out unless they are crossed-over below 30 Hz. That is also why I am a Soundlab owner.

And even then there is something "not quite right" about it. For that reason, my Descent stays switched for most of the time. To be honest I am not sure why though. I mean 30Hz is slow, right?

I'm not sure of the practicality of it, but a Martin Logan dual-force bass only panel, with a variable x-over point might sell pretty well. I'm not sure how large it would need to be to hit 30Hz... but 30Hz is pretty acceptable overall.

I bet CLX owners would plump for it rather than 2x Descent i as the blend would be great. If you could disable the bass driver on the Summit X, it could be a great upgrade for them too.

Just thinkin'

 

[Neil H]

Hey - that is cool.... Does he compare it to the 'old' Summit or the Maggie 20.1? To me - that is the competition really....and I know those guys at TAS love their Maggies....

I currently have the orginal Summits and Maggie 20.1. I decided to buy the 20.1s after hearing them in a home situation. I wasn't planning on buying new speakers but was just blown away by the detail and realism. I kept the Summits in case I had made a mistake. I have now had both for the past 6 months but will be selling the Summit's soon. They are fine speakers but for my tastes the 20.1s are in a different class.

I haven't heard the CLX but would think the 20.1s should be compared to that rather than the Summit. I don't use a sub with 20.1s as there is plenty of bass. In fact the bass is the most realistic of any speaker that I have heard. A kick drum is presented as a full size instrument.

As you can tell I just love the 20.1s and have really been surprised at how much better I found them in comparison to the Summit's. Of course that is judy my opinion and other people would obviously have different tastes.

 

[Peter_Klim]

I currently have the orginal Summits and Maggie 20.1. I decided to buy the 20.1s after hearing them in a home situation. I wasn't planning on buying new speakers but was just blown away by the detail and realism. I kept the Summits in case I had made a mistake. I have now had both for the past 6 months but will be selling the Summit's soon. They are fine speakers but for my tastes the 20.1s are in a different class.

I haven't heard the CLX but would think the 20.1s should be compared to that rather than the Summit. I don't use a sub with 20.1s as there is plenty of bass. In fact the bass is the most realistic of any speaker that I have heard. A kick drum is presented as a full size instrument.

As you can tell I just love the 20.1s and have really been surprised at how much better I found them in comparison to the Summit's. Of course that is judy my opinion and other people would obviously have different tastes.

How do they compare, in regards to sweet spot?

 

[Audioseduction]

Just get a pair of Summit Xs and be done with it! :music:

 

[David Matz]

I currently have the orginal Summits and Maggie 20.1. I decided to buy the 20.1s after hearing them in a home situation. I wasn't planning on buying new speakers but was just blown away by the detail and realism. I kept the Summits in case I had made a mistake. I have now had both for the past 6 months but will be selling the Summit's soon. They are fine speakers but for my tastes the 20.1s are in a different class.

I haven't heard the CLX but would think the 20.1s should be compared to that rather than the Summit. I don't use a sub with 20.1s as there is plenty of bass. In fact the bass is the most realistic of any speaker that I have heard. A kick drum is presented as a full size instrument.

As you can tell I just love the 20.1s and have really been surprised at how much better I found them in comparison to the Summit's. Of course that is judy my opinion and other people would obviously have different tastes.

I find the Maggies sound very lifelike and have better bass integration than the Logans. However, having listened to electrostats for so long, I can never get past this lack of resolution Maggies seem to have.

If you like the sound of the kick-drum, get as big as SS amps as you can find. I heard the 20.1's driven by some Boulder monoblocks, and it's bass that is hard to forget.

 

[Peter_Klim]

I find the Maggies sound very lifelike and have better bass integration than the Logans. However, having listened to electrostats for so long, I can never get past this lack of resolution Maggies seem to have.

If you like the sound of the kick-drum, get as big as SS amps as you can find. I heard the 20.1's driven by some Boulder monoblocks, and it's bass that is hard to forget.

Exactly which ML are you comparing when talking about bass integration?

How do the Maggies compare to ML in regards to the sweet spot? Is it much smaller or just a little bit smaller?

 

[David Matz]

Exactly which ML are you comparing when talking about bass integration?

How do the Maggies compare to ML in regards to the sweet spot? Is it much smaller or just a little bit smaller?

I did not compare the sweetspots. (If you are looking for a stat with a huge sweetspot, try the Soundlab. You can dance around the room all you want.)

Virtually any hybrid model of ML (or any hybrid electrostat) tries to integrate a super-fast panel with a slow woofer. It's kind of like a hippo trying to run with a cheetah -the results are not so good to my ears. At first I did not mind it, but eventually this error of commission got very annoying for me.

Even with the CLX, the bass does not go low enough (55 or 56 Hz?), so you will have to integrate with subs, so the same analogy applies.

 

[Rich]

Virtually any hybrid model of ML (or any hybrid electrostat) tries to integrate a super-fast panel with a slow woofer. It's kind of like a hippo trying to run with a cheetah -the results are not so good to my ears. At first I did not mind it, but eventually this error of commission got very annoying for me.

Fast Bass, Slow Bass - Myth vs. Fact

 

[twich54]

Exactly Rich........freq is relative to wavelength is it not.......longer(lower) / slower.....shorter(higher) / faster.......

With that being said I think the latest M/L's are the most seamless hybrids I've heard to date......but hell I'm getting old so my opinion probably dosen't count.

 

[Rich]

With that being said I think the latest M/L's are the most seamless hybrids I've heard to date.

I'm guessing that is because of the strides Joe Vojtko has made with the crossover topology and working out the phase shifts of the woofer vs. panel around the crossover point so they are more seamless (controlled dispersion, I believe is what they call it).

 

[GaryG]

If you like the sound of the kick-drum, get as big as SS amps as you can find. I heard the 20.1's driven by some Boulder monoblocks, and it's bass that is hard to forget.

I have my CLX's mated to a pair of Bryston 28B-SST2's (1300 watts/channel at clipping) with a Meridian 861 v6 processor. I have 4 subs (2 Descent's and 2 Velodyne DD-18's), but when I listen to two channel I much prefer no subs and I do not feel bass challenged.

Gary

 

[David Matz]

Fast Bass, Slow Bass - Myth vs. Fact

Rich, I quickly read it. It's interesting. I am not sure if everything in there is 100% correct, but I take everything I read with a grain of salt.
I don't know the writer's background, but I am always skeptical of claims based on only science that are not backed by observational listening. Listening to "pure scientists", IMO, is kind of like talking to very smart high school sophomores. They have mastered the material their teachers have assigned to them, but they lack life experiences. When their idealism meets real life, they are in for a lot of disappointment. After all, if all that mattered was science and measurements, we would all have $500 systems.

I did hear the Spires, which have a pretty amazing cross-over and the CLX in the same system with the same source material. The Spire's bass is plumper and rounder and slower (and is fairly deep). The CLX doesn't go as deep, but is much leaner and faster, but more importantly, "is of the same cloth". Others may have different experiences or realism triggers, of course.

 

[David Matz]

With that being said I think the latest M/L's are the most seamless hybrids I've heard to date......but hell I'm getting old so my opinion probably dosen't count.

Dave, I agree with you. I think the hybrid speakers from ML are superb, as are the Sanders, and as are the Janszen speakers which I heard a few years ago.

 

[David Matz]

I have my CLX's mated to a pair of Bryston 28B-SST2's (1300 watts/channel at clipping) with a Meridian 861 v6 processor. I have 4 subs (2 Descent's and 2 Velodyne DD-18's), but when I listen to two channel I much prefer no subs and I do not feel bass challenged.

Gary

Gary,

That sounds like an amazing system. If I am ever in your part of the country, I would love to stop by and hear it.

As for the bass being challenged, I think a lot of it depends on the type of music you listen to and your personal preferences. There is definitely a lot of musical information between 55 and 28 Hz. And surprisingly there is a lot of musical information (hall ambience and atmosphere) between 28HZ to 18Hz that adds to the realism of the experience. Most people don't realize it because they have not tried it. Someone demoed it to me on a box speaker and I was surprised and blown away.

 

[Rich]

I did hear the Spires, which have a pretty amazing cross-over and the CLX in the same system with the same source material. The Spire's bass is plumper and rounder and slower (and is fairly deep). The CLX doesn't go as deep, but is much leaner and faster, but more importantly, "is of the same cloth". Others may have different experiences or realism triggers, of course.

David, please describe exactly what you mean by "fast" or "slow" bass. I think saying a Spire has "slow" bass is a ludicrous statement.