new member

[jojomtn]

new to the site and saying HI to all. This is my very 1st setup and little by little I'm beginning to hear things I havent before. The goosebump factor I 1st experienced upon auditioning the system. I have been wanting to duplicate that feeling ever since. Once in a while I do and it just brings a smile to my face. May it be a clapping beat by neyo, a high violin note or a rumble from transformers the movie, this sensation is just awesome. By the way this is my system; I have preface, dynamo bl, encore tf powered by onkyo nr807. i went the cheaper hybrid route coz the cheapest ESL's were out of my budget. hopefully I can save up to get those ESL's and make my preface as surrounds. So my 1st question as a newb is, to get satisfactory loudness out of my system I have to crank the volume up to -10dB. Is my onkyo underpowered for my speakers. If so any suggestions? If not define underpower. Thanks

 

[churchill]

Welcome jojo!

I'm not familiar with your receiver but would think it has enough juice for your Preface. If the receiver has pre-outs you can always add a an external amp down the road.

 

[amey01]

Welcome. -10dB is arbitory depending on your particular amp. If it is not stressed and distorting then it is probably okay, but the issue is deeper than that.

To drive MLs properly, you really need high current capability and a stable amplifier into a low impedance load. For that, a Japanese receiver doesn't really cut it.

Most of us here use separate power amps from the likes of Pass, Classé, MBL, Krell et al.

 

[jojomtn]

Ty

Welcome. -10dB is arbitory depending on your particular amp. If it is not stressed and distorting then it is probably okay, but the issue is deeper than that.

To drive MLs properly, you really need high current capability and a stable amplifier into a low impedance load. For that, a Japanese receiver doesn't really cut it.

Most of us here use separate power amps from the likes of Pass, Classé, MBL, Krell et al.

So do I use these amps only or do i eventually need a receiver with these amps as preamp? Thanks churchill and amey01

 

[HamEJH]

I just bought the same setup as you, except I went with the Yamaha RX-V2065. But I was debating between that and the Onkyo that you have. Just to be clear, I am no expert on audio equipment, but based on the research I have done, here is what I have learned. The ML speakers are rated at 4ohms, where I think most other speakers are usually 8ohms. So in my opinion, I think most receivers in our price range are created and configured for 8ohms after looking at all of the spec sheets. However, both of our receivers have an advanced setting that will configure it down to 4ohms. Just read the manual to see how this is done. Just make sure that your receiver has a lot of room for ventilation as the lower ohms will probably pump more wattage, and the Onkyo tends to run hot.

Also, at first I setup my speakers by screwing the bare wires to the back of the receiver and speakers. But later I decided to hook them up with banana plugs. I went to radio shack and bought their basic crimp-on banana plugs. But instead of using the crimp, I sodered the wire to it using some silver soder. This may have been overkill since I did not notice any difference in clarity, but for some reason I felt it got a tad bit louder.

Hope this helps.

 

[Gordon]

So do I use these amps only or do i eventually need a receiver with these amps as preamp? Thanks churchill and amey01

Some, not all AVR's have pre-outs. These pre-outs give you the ability to add more powerful amplifiers while using all the features of your AVR. When using external amps, the amps in your AVR are taken out of the picture. Sometimes, folks will just get a 2 or 3 channel amp to drive the fronts and the center and allow the AVR to power the surrounds and or center. Your AVR then becomes a pre amp.

If that is confusing, ask away and somebody will try to be clearer than I am

Gordon

 

[amey01]

So do I use these amps only or do i eventually need a receiver with these amps as preamp? Thanks churchill and amey01

What Gordon said - basically if your AVR has pre-outs then use these pre-outs to more powerful amplifiers. If not, then rid yourself of the AVR and get a processor, then use real amps for your MLs. Another cheaper solution would be to buy another AVR with pre outs and use real amps for L and R, but use the AVR's built-in amplifiers for C, RL and RR. Make sense?

 

[alphamalex]

What Gordon said - basically if your AVR has pre-outs then use these pre-outs to more powerful amplifiers. If not, then rid yourself of the AVR and get a processor, then use real amps for your MLs. Another cheaper solution would be to buy another AVR with pre outs and use real amps for L and R, but use the AVR's built-in amplifiers for C, RL and RR. Make sense?

I just got a pair of Prefaces and am in the process of deciding what to do next; needing a receiver, pre/pro, amp, etc. I think I have pretty much decided to go separates and get an Emotiva XPA-3 to power the center and fronts (I've never had an amp of this power) and let the receiver/processor handle the rears.

I have a theoretical question about what a what a proper amp can do; does it make music sound better? Lets just talk two channel music. If my Encores are fed the right signal will they sound better that how they sound with my cheesy 6 year old Pioneer? Now I do like to turn it up but you can't do that all the time (kids/pets) and plus after a dozen songs I can't take any more. So, will an amp allow me to (only) rock the neighborhood, or will it also allow me to listen to things I have not heard before even at normal levels. You know what I mean Verne?

 

[jojomtn]

What Gordon said - basically if your AVR has pre-outs then use these pre-outs to more powerful amplifiers. If not, then rid yourself of the AVR and get a processor, then use real amps for your MLs. Another cheaper solution would be to buy another AVR with pre outs and use real amps for L and R, but use the AVR's built-in amplifiers for C, RL and RR. Make sense?

Makes alot of sense gordon and amey01. thanks for the explanation. I just found out that my onkyo 807 have preouts so its not really worthless after all. Ill probably go the cheaper avr way for now then just add a real amp later on if i outgrow the setup. then maybe if i reach the audiophiliac level i'll sell the receiver and get a processor. Im still learning and cramming all these info all at once is giving me a headache. processors, amps, tube, solid state, phono, biamping, etc, etc. the audio world seems so complicated to me but its exciting learning this stuff. thanks to this site newbs like me without audiophile friends can learn alot. So for now i'll prob stick with what i have then just sell later on whatever is necessary.

What i noticed so far is that the goosebumps are decreasing. Is there some sort of increasing tolerance to this? So what are your experiences on this topic? If you could do it all over again from scratch, what would you buy for $ 2500?

 

[MiTT]

What i noticed so far is that the goosebumps are decreasing. Is there some sort of increasing tolerance to this? So what are your experiences on this topic? If you could do it all over again from scratch, what would you buy for $ 2500?

I think that the decreased goosebump factor happens to all of us now and again. It's not that your system is doing anything less well, maybe that your ears have just grown accustomed to what they are hearing. Here's what I do whenever something like that happens. I just go through my collection and find some music that I haven't listened to in a long time - or I go buy something new. The more completely different to what you just finished listening to the better. Then the goosbumps should come back. I'd say take that $2500.00 and go spend it on new music!

Oh, and ...
:welcome:

 

[jojomtn]

mitt

That really makes sense Tim. I think youre right on listening to something completely different. I would also like to share that never in my life did I think that subwoofers made a world of difference. I mean I thought a sub was a sub. Now I can discern good from bad rumble. Then again it depends on taste. I guess everything does. Im on my 2nd week of my very 1st system and am loving it. love this site too.

 

[Gordon]

What i noticed so far is that the goosebumps are decreasing. Is there some sort of increasing tolerance to this? So what are your experiences on this topic? If you could do it all over again from scratch, what would you buy for $ 2500?

If I could start from scratch, I'd add the room treatments way before I bought new gear. I didn't pay enough attention to them up front and probably got rid of gear that would have been just fine. (for a bit )

Gordon

 

[F=ma]

new to the site and saying HI to all. This is my very 1st setup and little by little I'm beginning to hear things I havent before. The goosebump factor I 1st experienced upon auditioning the system. I have been wanting to duplicate that feeling ever since. Once in a while I do and it just brings a smile to my face. May it be a clapping beat by neyo, a high violin note or a rumble from transformers the movie, this sensation is just awesome. By the way this is my system; I have preface, dynamo bl, encore tf powered by onkyo nr807. i went the cheaper hybrid route coz the cheapest ESL's were out of my budget. hopefully I can save up to get those ESL's and make my preface as surrounds. So my 1st question as a newb is, to get satisfactory loudness out of my system I have to crank the volume up to -10dB. Is my onkyo underpowered for my speakers. If so any suggestions? If not define underpower. Thanks

Welcome to the site...though I think you've been here longer than myself.

I am awaiting the same model receiver to drive a pair of Vantage's I bought used yesterday from a forum member. I know it's not the Mercedes of amplifiers, but it's a huge step up from where I was. I selected the 807 because it was at a reasonable price point for my needs, and because it had the ability to handle 4 ohm speakers.

Learning it has pre-outs was good to read. Since the Vantage has internal amps to power the woofers, I think 135W/channel should do the job for a while for me.

Best wishes on your quest for a pair of ESL's. It took me eighteen years. I'm hopeful you can do it quicker.

 

[jojomtn]

ive read so many reviews on the onkyo 807 f=ma. there were only 2 reviews about it that ive seen negative. it seemed it came from the same person too. He was complaining about the 807 reverting back to an older model when he tried to reset to factory settings. having said that, there were plenty of excellent reviews. 2 of which came from seemingly knowledgeable people who ran 4 ohm speakers. Their reviews sold me. I got best buy to price match abt electronics at $810. If you got it for less pls tell me so i can still have them readjust my price.

This has been bugging me for the last few days. Is the source alot better than the preface? preface is $1000 less. is it worth it? pls advise

 

[tsmooth]

You have to let your ears decide. I would listen to a cd on your rig and get really used to the sound you hear. Make sure you know what each sound is like and where it is located. Bring that same cd to BB or wherever you can listen to the sources (and maybe the preface side by side) and make note of the differences. For me, I had a music journal to test out speakers. I made notes during passages that I thought were outstanding or that I thought could use improvement. It basically comes down to is this next jump worth the money?

On the amp front, I believe even an good amp will beat the output of a reciever any day of the week. When it comes to it, receivers are designed to drive manstream speakers with average impedences. The preface and the other ATF speakers might not be that difficult to drive, but the ESL speakers can dip down to 2 or 1 ohms during high frequency / difficult passages and a receiver just will not be able to supply enough watts to accurately reproduce music like a good amp. Something to think about if you go that route.

 

[F=ma]

jojomtn, I paid $819 for the Onkyo 807 at Crutchfield.

While researching used prices a few days ago, I found someone in the Chicago area on e-bay selling two sets of Vista's with a buy it now of $4k. For a short while, I thought about buying those two sets, then selling one of the pairs for $2000 - $2500. Then I stumbled across this site and found the Vantages.

If someone has the capital, time, and favorable geographic location, they might be able to put a deal together that would get them a pair of Vistas for $1500 or so.

 

[jojomtn]

F=ma, those vistas sound sweet but really dont have the time, budget, etc yet.

tsmooth, i'll try to find that place where they have both source and preface in the same room so i can audition them properly. are you saying that its not beneficial to have the source just powered by a receiver? If so I will lean on staying with the preface instead since I dont have the funds to get source and an amp at the same time. So which comes 1st the speakers or the amps? What yr are you if you dont mind me asking? I'll be taking my USMLE this yr.

With movies my setup sounds great. and i only have a 2.1. TV is ok. with CD's it seems too bassy. When I use the ipod dock it sounds like crap. still learning how to put into memory the settings when using different sources if its even possible. God bless you all

 

[DC-Audiophile]

If you are really curious about the difference in driving the MLs with an amp vs. your AVR, you could always find an audio dealer who can provide you with a demonstrator amp for you to try at home overnight or over a weekend. But a good amp will cost in the $1000s. Another option, which is the route I took due to space constraints, is to eventually look at buying a high-end AVR. There are several including those made by Arcam and Denon who's amplifiers, although integrated, are VERY good, but also expensive! Of course the ideal solution is to go with individual components, each optimized for their given function.

 

[tsmooth]

I am just an M1, I took a few years off to work on CT/PET scanners for GE heathcare so my wife could finish her doctorate and I could buy some speakers .

I ran the Sources with my Denon receiver for a few months and it sounded awesome. It is all in your perspective. It was the best thing I had ever heard out of my system (I had a pretty solid Polk system before that). Then I added a Rotel 1080 and it changed again. The soundstage was great before, but now it had depth. Each instrument had a location and subtle sounds became more life-like. Then, on recommendation from this site, I picked up a Sunfire amp because it was designed for the difficult load of a panel speaker. That move really filled in the bottom end and that is the amp I have stuck with for a few years now (mates very well with the Vistas). I am extremely happy with the system I have now but it has been progression over a few years.

Just judging by the ATF in my vignettes and how great they sound I think you will be happy with your preface setup. Hopefully you got a pretty good deal on them due to the motion series coming online. Also, Amazon is running a deal on the Encore for $199 a pop if you are thinking about staying with this setup for a while.

 

[jojomtn]

thanks for the advice DC. However I think I must stick with my onkyo 807 since i feel like im going beyond my budget. after a yr or so i'll prob start upgrading or adding. for now i'll prob do inexpensive stuff such as placement and home made room treatments as gordon mentioned. Do banana plugs really help?

Tsmooth i finally found a room with both source and preface. In my own non-golden ear perception, the source was more crisp and had more depth. The soundstage was better. all in all, it only sounded a half step better that the preface. I dont think its a $1000 more worth the move. Not even $500. But pls do note that this may be due to poor placement of the source, poor receiver used, or simply because im a noob. so for now im staying with my very close ESL-like ATF preface and buying a pair of vignettes with the money saved. the preface i got for $500 each and the dynamo bl for $350. the best prices i could find so far. the encore i got recently for $300 at BB. i'll have them price adjust soon at $200. if they dont honor it i'll return it and buy the ones at amazon. Thanks to everyone who gave me advice. esp tsmooth. you made the voices dissappear. can the encores be used as surrounds? do you think the vignettes would sound better though?