Large vs. Small

[Waboman]

I thought I had it all figured out. Apparently, I was wrong.

I've been reading a lot about speaker settings. As of now, I have my Prodigys set to "large", my Theater and Scripts set to "small." I have the LFE+Main. The crossover is at 60Hz. From what I've been reading, the recommendation is to set all speakers to "small" and the LFE-THX. I'm having a hard time understanding the reasoning of setting my Prodigys to "small."

I'm hoping the ML gurus will show me the light and guide me down the right path.

 

[Reverb2009]

Well I would change your crossover setting to 80hz because that's where your Theater center and Scripts frequency response rolls off.

If you set your Prodigy's to large it will take a load off your amp not having to reproduce the lower frequencies. You would probably get better mids and highs with them set to small, unless your have your Prodigy's bi-amped? Then I would leave them to large.

If your using a single channel to power your Prodigy's I would try them both ways and see which one your like best. I found with my Ascents the mids and highs were improved and the sound stage much wider set to small till I bi-amped them, now there best set to Large.

 

[MotorToad]

That's a tough call. The Prodigies have that bass alignment stuff with the second woofer, you'd probably get better bass out of them than all but the nicest subs. They're rated down to 28 Hz and I don't think ML are ones to fudge that number, not by my ears, anyway. On the other hand, it's very likely that your receiver is going to crap itself out trying to drive them; if not biamping them, I'd certainly get an external amplifier for them. Something I've thought about but have never tried, you could use the receiver to power the woofers (on "large") and an external amp on the panels.

I disagree a bit about bumping the crossover to 80 Hz, just because you'd be wasting almost two octaves of delicious Prodigy thump, bass that's not going to be going to the rears anyway since they're set on "small." My main concern would be getting those incredible Prodigies powered to their potential.

 

[Waboman]

Thanks guys! I have the ML Descent for my sub. The Prodigies have their own Krell amp. (Bi-wired, not bi-amped.) It just doesn't seem right to set the Prodigies to "small." Maybe, I'm looking at this the wrong way.

As for keeping the LFE+Main vs LFE-THX? I may have to play around a bit. I'm just trying to maximize the performance of my Logans.

 

[Reverb2009]

I disagree a bit about bumping the crossover to 80 Hz, just because you'd be wasting almost two octaves of delicious Prodigy thump, bass that's not going to be going to the rears anyway since they're set on "small." My main concern would be getting those incredible Prodigies powered to their potential.

Ummmmm... What?


The crossover setting in the receiver/pre-amp is the point that you want the pre-amp to stop sending the audio single to your speaker and redirect the remanding frequency below the set crossover point to the sub. Only speakers set to "small" will use the crossover setting, speakers set to "large" will get the full range single range.

So if the Prodigy's are set to large the crossover setting only effects the Theater center and the Script surrounds. Both speakers only play down to 80hz so by selecting a 60hz crossover setting you will more or less have a 20hz hole in your frequency response. That's no Gouda.

 

[MotorToad]

Well I would change your crossover setting to 80hz because that's where your Theater center and Scripts frequency response rolls off.

If you set your Prodigy's to large it will take a load off your amp not having to reproduce the lower frequencies. You would probably get better mids and highs with them set to small

That's the bit I was disagreeing with. Setting the Prodigies to "small" with an 80 Hz crossover point would be a shame, IMesHO. The Depth i is rated to 20 Hz but it's also rated at +/- 3 dB at 20-150 Hz, that's 6 dB over just three octaves! Not saying the Depth i isn't a great sub, but ML also did a hell of a job on the Prodigies. I think it's possible the system might sound as good using the Prodigies without a sub.

With the Krell powering the Prodigies I don't see any issue at all for Waboman other than tuning the sound to where he's happiest.

 

[Waboman]

That's no Gouda.

Lol.

The Depth i is rated to 20 Hz but it's also rated at +/- 3 dB at 20-150 Hz, that's 6 dB over just three octaves! Not saying the Depth i isn't a great sub, but ML also did a hell of a job on the Prodigies. I think it's possible the system might sound as good using the Prodigies without a sub.

With the Krell powering the Prodigies I don't see any issue at all for Waboman other than tuning the sound to where he's happiest.

I'm actually using the Descent sub, not the Depth. Not sure if that matters.

Sounds like I need to reset the crossover for my "small" speakers to 80Hz. I'll do that when I get home tonight.

What about the Prodigys? Should I keep them "large?" Also, is setting the LFE+Main or LFE-THX?

Thanks!!

 

[Horchem1972]

Only a suggestion.

I personally would run them in large for music and small for home theater.Bass from movies will destroy woofers and severely limit the systems output capability.I have my Monolith's set to large for movies and small for theater.Try it and see if you like it.

 

[JonFo]

Lol.



I'm actually using the Descent sub, not the Depth. Not sure if that matters.

Sounds like I need to reset the crossover for my "small" speakers to 80Hz. I'll do that when I get home tonight.

What about the Prodigys? Should I keep them "large?" Also, is setting the LFE+Main or LFE-THX?

Thanks!!

Waboman, since I know you are talking about the Denon AVP preamp, here are my suggestions as another AVP and large ML speaker owner:

Even thought the Prodigies can go deep, they are never placed where there is good low frequency (below 50Hz) room reinforcement, so sending those signals to a sub will help. Also, relieving the Prodigy woofers from trying to do both the LF and any mid-bass will clean up the mid-bass.

So, I say set them to Small and set the crossover in the AVP for the L/R fronts to 40 or 60Hz. Start with 60 (that's where I have my Monoliths).

Your center and other Small speakers should probably be set 10Hz higher than the Audyssey Auto setup places them. So if Audyssey says 70Hz, go for 80. But in general, 80 is a pretty safe bet, unless it is less than the Audyssey calculated value.

In the AVP, set the LFE to 120Hz (so all LFE data makes it to the sub). Don’t worry, the other crossovers will only send the information below that speakers crossover point to the Sub.

I recommend using LFE-THX as your Sub mode setting. This maintains the separation of duties in the speakers, and is symmetrical for all sound modes in the AVP.

Also, set the THX Ultra2 mode on for your Descent sub.

And finally, I recommend you re-run a full Audyssey setup, following Giomania’s guide using all 8 positions, and because we have ELSs, varying the height of the mic by 6” or so for at least two of the measurements. (I do it with the ones to the L/R of the prime spot)

Hope that helps.

 

[Waboman]

Thanks everyone!

I changed my center and surrounds to 80Hz. Also, I set my Prodigies to "small" and LFE-THX and turned on the THX Ultra2 mode for my sub.

On 2-channel sources,e.g. CD, I have the Prodigies set to "large" with the crossover at 60Hz and LFE+Main. Does this sound right?

Jon, you say set my L/R to 60Hz. How do I select this? The only place I found to do this is the 2-channel direct. Also, you mention setting the LFE in the AVP to 120Hz. Where do I find that? I'm not using Audyssey, so that may make a difference...

 

[JonFo]

Thanks everyone!

I changed my center and surrounds to 80Hz. Also, I set my Prodigies to "small" and LFE-THX and turned on the THX Ultra2 mode for my sub.

On 2-channel sources,e.g. CD, I have the Prodigies set to "large" with the crossover at 60Hz and LFE+Main. Does this sound right?

Jon, you say set my L/R to 60Hz. How do I select this? The only place I found to do this is the 2-channel direct. Also, you mention setting the LFE in the AVP to 120Hz. Where do I find that? I'm not using Audyssey, so that may make a difference...

Waboman,

First, and ignore my comment about LFE 120Hz setting for its filter, I was thinking of other Audyssey equipped receivers. Our AVP will pass full LFE bandwidth to the sub at all times.


Here are the steps to set your system up the way I recommened:

• Manual Setup->Speaker Setup->Speaker Configuration->Front: Small
• Manual Setup->Speaker Setup->Crossover Frequency->Advanced: 60
• Manual Setup->Speaker Setup-> Speaker Configuration ->SubWoofer: Yes
• Manual Setup->Speaker Setup->SubWoofer Setup->Configuration: 1SP
• Manual Setup->Speaker Setup->SubWoofer Setup->Mode: LFE-THX

To set your 2ch playback to use the sub and be crossed over at 60

• Audio Setup->Speaker Setup->2Ch Direct Stereo->Setting: Basic
  (this uses all the settings we just configured above in the Speaker setup)

To set your 2ch playback to use the sub, but set the crossover at 40Hz

• Audio Setup->Speaker Setup->2Ch Direct Stereo->Setting: Custom
• Audio Setup->Speaker Setup->2Ch Direct Stereo->Front: Small
• Audio Setup->Speaker Setup->2Ch Direct Stereo->Subwoofer: Yes
• Audio Setup->Speaker Setup->2Ch Direct Stereo->Subwoofer Mode: LFE-THX
• Audio Setup->Speaker Setup->2Ch Direct Stereo->Crossover: 40hz
• Audio Setup->Speaker Setup->2Ch Direct Stereo->Distance FL: [your distance to Front left]
• Audio Setup->Speaker Setup->2Ch Direct Stereo->Distance FR: [your distance to Front right

That should do it


I still recommend you use an Auto-setup first to let the system compute distances (the sub specifically will 'measure' further, as the electronics in it add delay).
No need to do an 8 point Audyssey, just stop it after the first round to capture basic info.

But I still recommend Audyssey very highly. A well run measurement will result in pretty impressive room correction.

 

[Waboman]

Jon,

First off, thanks!

Do I want to set the crossovers at 60Hz? I've read here and in the AVP forum that it's recommended to set them at 80Hz?

As of now for my 2 channel playback I have the Prodigies set to "large" the crossover at 40Hz and LFE+Main. So I want to set the Prodigies to "small" and change the LFE+Main to LFE-THX? Ok, got it.

Is there any advantage to using LFE+Main?

If I set the crossover for my Prodigies at 40Hz in the "custom" 2 channel playback, will that carry over for movie watching? For example, when watching a blu-ray will the AVP keep my 80 or 60Hz on the center and surrounds and use the 40Hz for the Prodigies? Or will every speaker set to "small" have the crossover the same?

I guess I'm of the old school purist way of thinking when it comes to EQs. Maybe Audyssey is different, but I've never been a big fan of EQing (is that a word) my system.

I have entered the distance for each speaker and I use my trusty Radio Shack analog SPL to calibrate the volume.

With that said, you really have my interest piqued in doing a full blown Audyssey. Just don't want to bite off more then I can chew.

 

[JonFo]

Hi waboman, Here are my answers:

Jon,

First off, thanks!

Do I want to set the crossovers at 60Hz? I've read here and in the AVP forum that it's recommended to set them at 80Hz?

For your front speakers, 60 is fine. They are capable of lower, but this is a good crossover point to the sub.

Is there any advantage to using LFE+Main?

I’m going to perform some comprehensive tests (since I can ‘see’ frequency division by channel in my driverack RTA) and document those on the Wiki. But my understanding for now is that LFE+Main doubles up the bass from the L/R into the sub. Why one would do this

If I set the crossover for my Prodigies at 40Hz in the "custom" 2 channel playback, will that carry over for movie watching? For example, when watching a blu-ray will the AVP keep my 80 or 60Hz on the center and surrounds and use the 40Hz for the Prodigies? Or will every speaker set to "small" have the crossover the same?

No, the 2ch setting will NOT carry over, they provide two distinct sets:

• A baseline multichannel configuration
• A 2Ch configuration that can inherit the baseline
• A 2Ch custom configuration that can override many of the baseline parameters
  • So it depends which parameters were overridden

In the AVP, each channel group can have a unique crossover, even if the speaker ‘size’ is set to small.
For instance, my fronts are 60Hz, center is 80, sides A are 90 and side/rear B are 80.

Oh and there is indeed an LFE cutoff in the manual speaker setup that one does want at 120Hz. So I did recall right. The darn manual just doesn’t mention it.

I guess I'm of the old school purist way of thinking when it comes to EQs. Maybe Audyssey is different, but I've never been a big fan of EQing (is that a word) my system.

I have entered the distance for each speaker and I use my trusty Radio Shack analog SPL to calibrate the volume.

With that said, you really have my interest piqued in doing a full blown Audyssey. Just don't want to bite off more then I can chew.

Audyssey is so much more than just EQ, but that’s a topic for another thread
But I will comment that any potential negative effects of EQ pale in contrast to the huge room induced frequency and time domain distortions.

I do however highly encourage you to use the Auto-setup on the AVP to set baseline levels and distances using the Audyssey mic.

Just go into auto-Setup and run one round of measurements (cycles through all speakers), then exit the setup at the point and look at the levels and trims of the various speakers. None should be +/-7 or more. Typically, the subs are way off and you need to adjust their levels. Rinse and repeat until baseline SPL’s are right.
This will calculate distances and levels correctly. Your subs are likely to measure a foot or two ‘further’ than physical measurements due to delays in their electronics.

Also, setting baseline levels will detect any phase issues and will set the relative volume levels on all channels as well as calibrate the volume settings.

 

[Waboman]

Thanks Jon!!!

I simply can't find anything in the GUI that will let me choose different crossovers for different speakers. Also, I cannot locate the LFE cutoff to set it at 120Hz.

Looks like I might be forced to run Audyssey to gain access to these controls.

Now where did I put that mic...