I'm learning...

[Wish4ML]

Hello everyone!

I'm a new member here as I finally registered. I've been viewing this site for quite a long time, as I appreciate the opinions of most of the ML Club members.
I feel that I need some counseling...so here it goes.

I'm 33 years old and grew up attending every loud, bass driven, guitar jamming concert imaginable. I was also one of those kids with a couple 10 inch woofers mated to a "10,000" watt amp. I've fortunately "grown up".
I will say, that I listen to all types of music. I'm a fan of mostly rock, but also enjoy jazz, folk and a little country. The point in saying all of this, is that my ears have changed (yes, I still have very good hearing, luckily), but I now enjoy nothing more than putting the kids to bed, turning off the lights, heading down to the basement and listening to...well...last night was Steely Dan. I'm more into 2 channel than HT.

I'm not very happy with my current setup.
Receiver: Denon AVR-1082
DVD Player: Denon DVM-1805
Speakers: Klipsch RF-83
Subwoofer: Velodyne SPL1500R

I've had the RF-83's for a little over a year. I was interested in the dynamics of this speaker. Now that I've spent time with them, I have found that they are way too harsh for me. I find a lot of high and low frequency, but not much in the middle. They play extremely loud (probably my first choice if I had to run a neighborhood concert), but I'm not listening to "very" loud music anymore. I also wonder if it's my receiver too. It doesn't seem "warm" either.

I'm currently selling the Klipsch's and planning on purchasing ML's. I'm looking at either Vantage, Purity or Source. Will the Vantage sound ok in a small listening room? Do they need a lot of open space? Would you guys suggest purchasing the Source instead of the Purity? Spend the saved $1,000 on new amplification?

I know this post is all over the place. I'm just bummed that I'm not happy with my current sound. I should have purchased ML's in the beginning.

Thanks,
-Ryan

 

[Bernard]

Will the Vantage sound ok in a small listening room?

What is the size of the room?

I should have purchased ML's in the beginning.

 

[Wish4ML]

Bernard,

The listening room is 24' deep by 15' wide.

Thanks!

 

[Kenscollick]

In my opnion a big speaker will work better in a small room than a small speaker in a big room. I have never heard a speaker overwhelm a room. Go with the largest martin Logan you can afford.

http://www.martinloganowners.com/~tdacquis/forum/showthread.php?t=169

 

[DrJRapp]

Just my opinion but if you buy anything less than Summits they will sound small to you after coming from the RF83s.

I was listining with RF7s before getting my MLs. Initially listened to Vantages against the 7s and they had that "small" phenominon. I later got the hear the Summits against the 7s and they sounded much better. The dual powered woofers make the difference.

RF83s replaced the RF7s as the top of the Reference line so they are somewhat comparable.

Just a sidenote. A large part of the "harshness" you are experienceing is due to the poor amplification coming from the crudeness of the Denon receiver. The MLs will make that even more obvious.

 

[nsgarch]

The unpleasant sonics are due to the Denon, not the Klipschs. If your Denon has a preamp output (bypasses the amp) see if you can borrow (even a modest 50W or more) tube amp. Or maybe the DVD player has a volume control? and you can go right into a tube amp? Otherwise, borrow a preamp too.

I don't like Velodyne subs, but lets not go there 'cause a lot of people do (at this stage of their journey ) Also that particular Denon is not well-liked fron the reviews I've read.

Bottom line: the sonic character of any system is primarily determined by the speakers, the amp, and a careful combining of the two. You have excellent speakers, and their 100dB sensitivity means that even a modest power but quality tube amp (for great mid-range) should make you very happy.

 

[Gordon]

Hi Ryan,

I'm a new guy also and recently bought the Vantage for my 11.5X24X8 room. I replaced Paradigm Sig S8s. It took me all of about 3 hours to know I made the right choice. The Vantage fillls my room with wonderful sound which I hope gets better with some room treatments I'm playing with.

My ears are 17 years older than yours. I've found over time that my job, jet engine mechanic, has affected my hearing. I've had to change speakers every couple years to cope with the percieved harsh sound that comes from tweeters/horns. Since, I've had to change speakers so often, my wife does not object and is used to it, in a year or two I may be able to swing the Summits in the front door! I believe the Vantage/Summit, with it's lack of a tweeter is the end of the journey for me.

I think our taste in music and its reproduction evolves and so must our equipment. I also like a warm sound and I think I am on the right course. As some of the more knowledgeable guys than me have said, your source, amplification and interconnects have a big impact on what you hear. It is a slippery slope, enjoy the slide!!

Gordon

 

[Wish4ML]

Gordon, nsgarch, DrJRapp, Bernard, Kenscollick,

Thanks guys for your input. It is much appreciated.
I will work on my components right now and see if this will improve my sound.

I think Martin Logan's are in the future.

Thanks again.
-Ryan

 

[JonFo]

While I agree that many of the properties of the 'sound' you get are driven by the amp and speaker combo, however, please consider that the room, and it's treatments, provide far more influence than most people realize.

You could change speakers or amps and still have what you describe as a 'harsh' sound.

This could be caused by too many early reflections from side-walls and/or ceiling (the lower the ceiling, the more likely it is a problem when using 'regular' speakers).

MartinLogans in many ways reduce the influence of the room (fewer ceiling reflections due to being line sources, fewer side wall reflections due to limited horizontal dispersion). But they do provide other challenges to deal with, since they are dipolar radiators (placement challenges, rear wave management, loss of bass augmentation due to location, etc. etc.)

For example, even in a room designed for my ML's, I still wound up spending over $10K on commercial treatments, and am currently doing >100hrs of DIY treatment work to get the room to ideal acoustic properties. Without changing the amps or speakers, or any other gear, the sound improves noticeably (and measurably) with each room treatment change. Including, getting rid of some ‘harshness’ at high volumes caused by room-induced modal ringing.

Whether using ESL or regular box speakers, it's about understanding the entire ecosystem of sound and the various interdependencies therein. Two of the most significant interdependencies are the speakers and the room.

 

[C.A.P]

I think room size and speaker integration should play a huge role in your decision. A bad room can ruin a good set up faster than anything. There are many threds here and on the net about treating the room . Its what will make or break your system. Speaker size for me is crucial. I would try and match the speaker to the room. In my findings the larger the panel the larger the room they like. They also NEED more room to breath. This means that if you have a small room and plan on stuffing them to close to the wall or side wall to make the room usable you will NOT get the best out of that larger panel. You would be better off with a smaller panel that needs not as much distance out from the room to sound its best. Remember all Martin Logan's need to be at least , MINIMUM 2 feet from the front wall, and 2 feet from the side walls for any attempt at getting some good sound out of them. The bigger panels sound best sometimes 5 to 6 feet out into the room . This now leaves you with a listening position that is either pinned to the rear wall which is not good or you will be doing a lot of near field listening.

Room management ! Its the way to start !

 

[Rich]

The unpleasant sonics are due to the Denon, not the Klipschs.

I disagree with this, at least in part. The Denon may be part of your problem. But I have never been a fan of any of the Klipsch speakers. Harsh with no midrange is exactly how I would describe them, which is apparently your impression as well. There are lots of great speakers out there. I just don't think Klipsch rates in that category anymore. Perhaps a tube amp would mellow them out some, as Neil indicates. But they still will not sound "great," in my opinion.

Start with better speakers, then upgrade to quality separate amp and preamp. Only then will you begin to approach two-channel nirvana.

 

[Wish4ML]

Thanks guys for the insight into room setup/acoustics. I have 9' ceilings, sheetrock walls, tight burber carpet and a large couch and chair. The speakers are also on spikes and placed in corners for each channel.

There are several valid points that each of you have brought to my attention. Thanks again. For now, I'm going to work on amplification and room treatments. The one (and important thing) I've got going for me, is that my wife prefers the asthetics of ML's to my Klipschs'. She prefers the larger panel MLs'. In fact, she told me to save the money and get ML's instead of my Klipschs' in the first place.

The problem now...I don't want to tell her that she was probably right!

 

[Rich]

The one (and important thing) I've got going for me, is that my wife prefers the asthetics of ML's to my Klipschs'. She prefers the larger panel MLs'. In fact, she told me to save the money and get ML's instead of my Klipschs' in the first place.

She's a keeper!

 

[C.A.P]

Does she have a sister? .....and a father who owns a brewery by any chance

 

[MOON]

Hi Ryan,

As stated, you will not have any problems running the vantages in your room.One problem though is that Martin Logans do require top notch components to compliment them , the receiver doesn't cut it. A good source is required as well.You will also have to get the speakers 5 ft off the wall behind them , that is 5ft between the stator and wall.

I assume your better half wounldn't have a problem with that after her glowing comment about the ML's. Another option you might want to consider is buying a used set of ML's, possibly Oddessey's, etc and put the money saved buying 2nd hand into the successor to the receiver. You will find ML owners take great care of their speakers. I bought my Oddessy's used, they were 1 year old and saved a fortune, couldn't be happier.Perhaps,have a look on www.audiogon.com for used ML's and on this very site.

Cheers, Greg

 

[Bernard]

The problem now...I don't want to tell her that she was probably right!

That's called having egg on your face

There are a few Vantages for sale on Audiogon right now, so you may want to consider them.