I just want to understand the movie dialog.

[Dcuste]

I'm not a hard core HT guy, but I do have a pretty nice room with some decent equipment. My current speakers are some old Boston in a 7.2 surround sound setup. Driven by a newer Onkyo HT putting out 110 watts/channel. My hearing is not good but I can, without much effort, understand live people if they speak at a normal level and there isn't a lot of background noise in the area. I bought a zvox sound bar for my TV that claimed to make dialog easier to understand. I was not impressed and don't see much difference in the sound settings. For my HT room, just today I ordered a new ML Motion 8 center speaker with the hopes it will allow me to understand the dialog better. Did I screw up? It will probably be Monday before it is shipped, so maybe I could cancel the order if this speaker is not going to be better than my current Boston center speaker. Is there something else out there that has a better chance of working for me or should I just bite the bullet and get hearing aids? Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

[ttocs]

I'm not sure which Boston center channel speaker you have, but my first center speaker was a Boston. A friend gave it to me when he upgraded. It was adquate.

If yours is anything close to what I had, then the Motion 8 would be a vast improvement.

 

[Dcuste]

I'm not sure which Boston center channel speaker you have, but my first center speaker was a Boston. A friend gave it to me when he upgraded. It was adquate.

If yours is anything close to what I had, then the Motion 8 would be a vast improvement.

Thanks for the reply.

It is a VR-10. As I understand, a middle of the road speaker. Good to know that you think so highly of the Motion 8. I was also considering a used ML Cinema speaker but it is twice the price and is so large that it wouldn't really fit well in the ideal spot. I'm also a little Leary of buying used without knowing the seller. I assume there is a break-in process for a new speaker like this. If after I give it a 100 hours of use or so and if I am still not able to understand the dialog, would you think going with the Cinema might be worth a shot?

 

[twich54]

have you had your hearing checked by a doctor / audiologist ?

 

[acousticengineer]

I just want to understand the movie dialog ......

Not sure o

f your age, but as some people grow older, they may be more prone to a greater loss of intelligibility due to a poor direct to reflected sound ratio. This is further aggravated if one ear is less sensitive to sound intensity level than the other ear. Younger people have more brain audio processing capability, and are less prone to this situation. If more of your sound arrives at your ears via reflection from walls and ceiling, very typical for most people watching TV, movies, ... as I said, you may suffer a loss of intelligibility. You can prove this by moving closer to a loudspeaker. This will increase the direct sound intensity level you hear, and thus decrease the reflected sound intensity level you hear. (Your direct to reflected ratio just got better) Yes, have your hearing examined. But you can reduce reflected sound by using absorbing material on walls and ceilings. Also, try not to increase the bass and treble levels. Doing this effectively reduces the level of sound most important to intelligibility: 800 Hz through 3,000 Hz. Acoustics is a science of ratios. This is a good point for further discussion.

 

[Dcuste]

I just want to understand the movie dialog ......

Not sure o

f your age, but as some people grow older, they may be more prone to a greater loss of intelligibility due to a poor direct to reflected sound ratio. This is further aggravated if one ear is less sensitive to sound intensity level than the other ear. Younger people have more brain audio processing capability, and are less prone to this situation. If more of your sound arrives at your ears via reflection from walls and ceiling, very typical for most people watching TV, movies, ... as I said, you may suffer a loss of intelligibility. You can prove this by moving closer to a loudspeaker. This will increase the direct sound intensity level you hear, and thus decrease the reflected sound intensity level you hear. (Your direct to reflected ratio just got better) Yes, have your hearing examined. But you can reduce reflected sound by using absorbing material on walls and ceilings. Also, try not to increase the bass and treble levels. Doing this effectively reduces the level of sound most important to intelligibility: 800 Hz through 3,000 Hz. Acoustics is a science of ratios. This is a good point for further discussion.

Yes, I am old and do have hearing loss that is much worse in one ear than the other. I also know that I don't hear higher frequencies well as well as frequencies that the wife uses when giving me orders for the day. LOL. I did actually try to have my hearing checked last month and forgot to followup, but definitely will make an appointment tomorrow.

My HT is in a room with very hard surfaces. Even the floor is tile, so it will be difficult to do much but I look into it. Maybe they make some paint that i could use on the walls and ceiling. I do have and equalizer capability and can turn down the center channel frequencies below 800 and above 3000 and see if that helps. Thanks for the help.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Not claiming to be old yet, but my wife and I tend to leave closed captioning on.

We were just streaming Nine: Nine Time Travels which is a Korean series that is sub titled. It's interesting because I do listen to their voices and inflection even through I can't understand a single thing being said, other than a few english words here and there.

 

[ttocs]

Acousticengineer has made some very good suggestions, and the quickest and easiest one is moving closer to the speaker. You can use bath towels, bed sheets and comforters, pillows etc for make-shift sound absorbers for testing purposes. Use a mirror against the front and side walls and wherever you see speakers in the mirror, while viewing from your seating position, is where you would add absorbing material.

 

[Dcuste]

Acousticengineer has made some very good suggestions, and the quickest and easiest one is moving closer to the speaker. You can use bath towels, bed sheets and comforters, pillows etc for make-shift sound absorbers for testing purposes. Use a mirror against the front and side walls and wherever you see speakers in the mirror, while viewing from your seating position, is where you would add absorbing material.

I think so too. I did some experimenting and sure enough moving in close to the center speaker does the trick. I also adjusted the levels down on the lower and higher frequencies as he suggested, but conversions were still difficult to understand until I moved closer. I like the mirror idea and will try that too. Thanks for the advice. I assume that means I'll need to absorb reflections coming off the ceiling and floor too.

Currently the center speaker is about one foot behind and below the bootom of the screen which is about 13 or 14 feet from the prime seating. Tomorrow I'll just move the speaker to within 6 feet in front of the seats and adjust the distance setting in the amp and see how that works. I should be getting my new Motion 8 by the end of the week. Looking forward to hearing the difference. The specs quote the dispersion as 80 X 80 on the Motion 8. I guessing that means 40 degrees above and below center and 40 degrees to the right and left of center. I assume that if I found a speaker with a real narrow cone of dispersion, the reflection off of the hard surfaces would be much less of an issue. Or maybe there is a way to narrow down the cone on this speaker. Has anybody ever put a speaker in an open ended box made from acoustic ceiling tile that is about 6" or a foot deeper than the speaker? I would think that would prevent a lot of the reflection issues.

 

[Dcuste]

So I give up on the idea of ever being able to move the center speaker back near the screen. As expected, my hearing tested bad but at least somewhat consistent between ears. The "Pure tone Audiogram" shows 35 db HL (Hearing Level) at 500Hz, 40 @ 1k, 45 @ 2k, 80 @ 4k and 6k. As I understand it, db HL is just a normalized db SPL so that a value between 0 and 20 db HL will always be considered "normal hearing" at all frequencies. The conversion from db SPL for 0 db HL is +15db SPL @ 250 Hz, +9 @ 500, +3 @ 1k, -3 @ 2k, -4 @ 4k & +13 @ 8k. So the question is how many db higher should I adjust the equalizer at each of these frequencies to compensate for my hearing loss?

Maybe, because the frequency response of the speakers isn't flat, a better idea would be to use a tone generator to input a set frequency and then measure the db SPL at my chair. Say I put in a 500 Hz and measure 90 db SPL, then I put in 1k Hz and knowing my hearing is 5db lower at that frequency, I move the equalizer up until it reads 95 db. Then I need to boost it up to 130 db at 4k and 8k. That doesn't seem possible to me.

I know the real fix is hearing aids. The testing place started at $4k for ones they tell me I won't like up to $9k. I know that I need to bite the bullet and buy some soon, but don't know if I'll want them in while I watch a movie.

Any thoughts?

 

[Brad225]

Dcuset, I also am in the older, hearing challenged time of life.

A couple of years ago I finally gave in to my wife's requests (that is putting it mildly) to get my hearing checked and consider hearing aids.

I researched what might be available for audiophiles and found a company called Widex. The owner focused on hearing improvement for musicians and performers.
They have different levels you can opt for. The one I chose has 4 different programs that can have different frequency adjustment curves.

I was able to have one adjusted to improve the loss curve from 500 to 3000 htz that greatly improved my music listening detail. We probably adjusted that program 6 times before be got it right for me. The most improved was vocal harmonies, were once again multiple separate voices were very clear.

The other 3 programs are spicily adjusted for Speech, general Front Focus and for Groups settings. It does greatly improve the issue you are working to improve with you center channel.

Though $6000 is not inexpensive each time I am there, I receive batteries and other disposable parts on them.

They came with a 90 day return policy for the total amount less the original hearing test.

In retrospect I probably would have opted for one that same quality and less programs for less money. I generally only use the one for music or front focus.

 

[Dcuste]

Dcuset, I also am in the older, hearing challenged time of life.

A couple of years ago I finally gave in to my wife's requests (that is putting it mildly) to get my hearing checked and consider hearing aids.

I researched what might be available for audiophiles and found a company called Widex. The owner focused on hearing improvement for musicians and performers.
They have different levels you can opt for. The one I chose has 4 different programs that can have different frequency adjustment curves.

I was able to have one adjusted to improve the loss curve from 500 to 3000 htz that greatly improved my music listening detail. We probably adjusted that program 6 times before be got it right for me. The most improved was vocal harmonies, were once again multiple separate voices were very clear.

The other 3 programs are spicily adjusted for Speech, general Front Focus and for Groups settings. It does greatly improve the issue you are working to improve with you center channel.

Though $6000 is not inexpensive each time I am there, I receive batteries and other disposable parts on them.

They came with a 90 day return policy for the total amount less the original hearing test.

In retrospect I probably would have opted for one that same quality and less programs for less money. I generally only use the one for music or front focus.

Thanks for the lead. I'm researching now and am thinking that I'll try out cheaper options first and keep returning them until I find ones that will work. My insurance will only cover $500 if I buy from the test center. They are pushing the Siemens Signia. I'm learning that they have you stuck because they are the only ones that can make adjustments. I'm a DIY kind of guy and hate the thought of having to keep going back for adjustments.

I do have a noise cancelling Bose headset that I use when I fly. I have used it in my HT and really like the sound quality and the fact I don't hear the projector, A/C, and other outside noises. However, most of the times I use the HT is with a group of older guys that have the same issue I have with hearing loss from noise exposure and old age. We mostly watch action movies and there isn't enough dialog for it to be too much of a problem. These guys are all getting soft now and want less action. Hence one reason I need to fix this for everybody's benefit. They bring the dinner, so I have to keep them happy. LOL. Just moving the front channel speaker closer has helped tremendously. I did some sound deadening experimenting but can't say for sure it that helpful.
I tried adjusting the equalizers by measuring the db out from a standard wave signal. At my chair, the max I see is about a 3db SPL increase of the frequencies that I need boosted the most. But even with the boost, the frequencies above around 3k HZ drop considerably. My guess is that is from the mic on the cell phone. I'm just using fee apps to generate the wave and measure the results, but the results appear to be realistic from what little I know. Tonight is movie night so we'll see. There is a lot of dialog in this movie so we'll see how that goes and then my next test will be with the new ML speaker.