Dark Side of the Moon Bass issues

[DrJRapp]

very low in frequency...

Sounds kind of like the sound you hear in your house when a large truck rumbles by.

That's very possibly what it is....

When I used to produce Odyssey we recorded at Media Sound in NYC (which is/was directly on Times Square above Mickey Ds) ...all the good groups would book at 4 am because that was when there was the least amount of traffic noise. Sometimes, even the best soundproofing cannot stop sertain LF noise. The real LF stuff would rarely make it to the final product however.

 

[JMAUSGP]

DTB300, that was the point of my post, I did not hear anything in 5.1 that to my ear was not suppose to be there. DSOTM and WYWH both have a lot of synthesized sound in the low frequencies that sounds perfect to my ear. I did not hear anything obvious that sounded out of place or that I would characterize as Bizarre. And I did not mean to infer that MCH is better than 2 channel. In that quote, I was rather making the point that at least with MCH there is more sound to love, again I am acutely aware that some people don't like MCH and that is fine with me. I try to post with an eye towared humor because some posters are just to serious about all this stuff. Like last night, that post about + and - terminals......I had to just crawl and then walk away, I was laughing so hard.

Sorry about the McCormack ARM lesson, didn't mean anything by it, just thought I would be a little clearer since the first post about using ARM with CD and phono was obviously not clear enough, although when I re-read it......anyway, if someone loves 2 channel fine, I happen to love multi-channel so I assume that is fine too. And the fact that Jeff is in one camp and I am in the other, doesn't mean that we can't configure our systems to see if we can in fact find this Bizarre bass before Ethan proves that it doesn't exist. Sorry Ethan, I couldn't resist...I will go sit in the corner now.

 

[tonepub]

That's very possibly what it is....

When I used to produce Odyssey we recorded at Media Sound in NYC (which is/was directly on Times Square above Mickey Ds) ...all the good groups would book at 4 am because that was when there was the least amount of traffic noise. Sometimes, even the best soundproofing cannot stop sertain LF noise. The real LF stuff would rarely make it to the final product however.

Interestingly enough, that's exactly what it sounds like...

It's just odd that no one else is hearing it. When I get done with the issue, I'll make some notes as to just where it is in the recording. On my Harbeth Monitor 40.1's that don't go much below 35hz, it's not there at all. I'll try a few other things too, now that I'm looking for it.

I'll also try some subwoofer placement things, though we spent two days measuring to get the best integration before. Might just be an odd frequency that's happening in my room!

 

[JonFo]

Not sure what problem so many of you seem to have with your systems on this album.

My experience is that it sounds perfect.

The Money track at 2:30 is fine. Lots’ of mid-bas more than ultra-low LF.

Looking at the RealTimeAnalysis plots of the various channels (using my DriveRack 4800), I can see that while there is some LF, it’s mostly in the 60 to 200hz range at that point.

The new mid-bass drivers in the Monoliths (and in my center) are getting a real workout, so I wonder if it’s actually an issue with mid-bass + bass in the same drivers being ‘muddy’.

For the record, my InfiniteBaffle sub is flat to 18Hz and even at high volumes these tracks all sound fine.

I do know what you are talking about RE: Road rumble, it’s common on certain CD’s and SACD’s of classical music recorded in European halls.
It’s infrasonic, I can see the woofers move, but can’t really hear much it’s so low.

But back to DSoTM, it’s always performed well on my rig, so I don’t believe it’s the recording per se.

 

[JonFo]

... I'll also try some subwoofer placement things, though we spent two days measuring to get the best integration before. Might just be an odd frequency that's happening in my room!

That would be my recommendation as well, I believe there is a specific resonant frequency being exited in your room.

Back before the IB and all the room treatments (and Audyssey), I recall my Velodyne's exiting certain resonances with specific discs.

But now, it’s not happened that I can recall.

 

[JMAUSGP]

I am with JonFo on this one. I have listened to Us and Them, three ways,a) MCh, b) Stereo with CLX with Descent i, and c) just stereo with CLX. I hear bass guitar and organ with low bass that may be what people are hearing, but to me the MLs resolve this sound perfectly. I am not getting any bass that I would characterize as not belonging to the music as a whole. Sorry, I gave it the old college try, sans any drugs.....but you know that might.....nevermind.:music:

 

[User211]

The Money track at 2:30 is fine. Lots’ of mid-bas more than ultra-low LF.

It isn't JonFo - at least not on a Capitol SACD released in 2003. The other refs I gave are also far from fine.

What precise version are you listening to out of interest?

It's not subtle for the refs I gave, it is quite prevalent. I'll check my vinyl copies later.

It's not that much of an issue - but I could probably record what my system is playing back and make it available. Just a small .wav snippet at 44.1KHz. Assuming my Roland Edirol catches it - spec at 20Hz bottom limit but that's probably just flat - I'm betting it will go lower minus a few decibels.

 

[User211]

I'll also try some subwoofer placement things, though we spent two days measuring to get the best integration before. Might just be an odd frequency that's happening in my room!

Just look at your Descent cones close up Jeff. It's easy to see what's going on - the Descent is pushing out the low frequencies - it isn't your room.

 

[DrJRapp]

I just kicked up the 25hz controls on my Summits a couple of clicks to +4 and yes there is something at about 2:33 on Money that goes on for about ten seconds. Unfortunatly, I can't resolve it well enough with my own ears to call it a truck rumbling outside, more like a "disturbance in the force" but YES...there is something there.

My CD recording is the 1992 Capitol digital remaster. I've got the 30th Anniversary Edition on Vinyl that I haven't opened yet...may be the excuse I need to listen at a later date, but I will refrain right now because my TT isn't dynamically set up properly at the moment.

I think it may be something that snuck through in the original mix. For those of you that haven't ever been in a studio, the monitors arn't necessarily chosen for full range, but rather for their ability to resolve subtle differences in the mid/high frequency ranges. I doubt that the original mixing engineers/producers at Abby Road could even hear it.

 

[User211]

DrJRapp - it is totally true.

This isn't hard, lads. It isn't rocket science. It it pretty easy to correlate the cone movement with the music at low frequencies. Or see easily when it doesn't correlate with any of the instruments played.

The low bass issues are blatantly on the SACD I have, at least. Blatant. Completely blatant. I can't say it any clearer.

Good to see Timm is switched in, anyway.

 

[User211]

I just kicked up the 25hz controls on my Summits a couple of clicks to +4 and yes there is something at about 2:33 on Money that goes on for about ten seconds. Unfortunatly, I can't resolve it well enough with my own ears to call it a truck rumbling outside, but YES...there is something there.

My CD recording is the 1992 Capitol digital remaster. I've got the 30th Anniversary Edition on Vinyl that I haven't opened yet...may be the xcuse I need to listen at a later date, but I will refrain right now because my TT isn't dynamically 100% set up properly at the moment.

Crossposts! Glad you can hear it. Try the Breathe ref too, and just listen to all of Us & Them. Are you using the SACD?

 

[DrJRapp]

I was editing as you posted...go back and re-read. I haven't pinpointed anything in Breathe YET....but in Us and Them there IS some really sloppy mixing in the LF from about 5:45 to about 6:00 that sounds, well...just...off.

Remember now, most people would never hear this on 99.9% of the systems out there...and I wouldn't have if I hadn't kicked up the 25hz settings to a bit hot.

 

[DTB300]

Interesting that some can hear this sound and some cannot with their setups and it appears to be just on this album - as per Tonepub's posts. I cannot believe DSOTM is the only album with these subsonic levels exciting a room and it modes. There are many other albums noted for low level sonics which could be tried to see if the same thing happens.

Tonepub - does it detract from the listening experience of the music or was it something you just picked up on one day?

And I did not mean to infer that MCH is better than 2 channel. In that quote, I was rather making the point that at least with MCH there is more sound to love, again I am acutely aware that some people don't like MCH and that is fine with me.

Boy, this typing and then trying to understand each other is difficult at best - welcome to public forums!!!! In person we all would have resolved this much sooner

Let me see if I can get across my point better: MCH can really improve upon the listening experience, but it can also ruin it. More is not always better.

Reference: SACD version: DSOTM which I grew up with in my party days, IMO (and some may vehemently disagree) ruins the music experience in MCH - it is gimmicky, sound all around you bouncing here and there, etc. It takes away or detracts from the music experience, again IMO.

If they would have just taken a far less aggressive approach with the surround channels, it would have been better. Other works on MCH have done this too - when it gets too agressive it ruins it for me. BUT BUT BUT, I have musician friends who like when this happens as they feel they are on stage playing with the artists. So I guess it is a preference thing.

I RESPECT that you like MCH more and glad you have the ARM and MAP-1 to enjoy this. We all need to determine what we like best and be glad we have the rigs to do this.

To me DSOTM is not that great sounding - but one must evaluate it for rock music from many years back and compare it against other recordings of the day and then I guess you could say it does have good quality. DSOTM is probably one of the MOST recommended SACD MCH albums recommended - and I just disagree. But the world keeps turning LOL

I have other SACD's from earlier years than DSOTM which I believe have better quality sound - but they are a different genre of music.

Sorry about the McCormack ARM lesson, didn't mean anything by it, just thought I would be a little clearer since the first post about using ARM with CD and phono was obviously not clear enough, although when I re-read it......anyway, if someone loves 2 channel fine, I happen to love multi-channel so I assume that is fine too.

The ARM lesson was good for others who may not know about it. I was really just curious if you heard the sounds with ARM engaged or not.

 

[User211]

http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:bYHR5usF6xEJ:www.pinkfloydz.com/darksidesandv.htm+pink+floyd+dark+side+of+the+moon+low+frequency&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=11&gl=uk

Quote: "Breathe. “There are so few elements here—drums, bass, guitar—until later when the Hammond organ comes in. There would be a problem if you started to separate things too much. So this was a case of trying to keep the sound anchored while spreading it.

“Going back to the very first generation of tapes, everyone assumes that the drums will benefit—which of course they do, because you have more transients. But everything benefits; everything is richer and has more depth.

“In the meantime, something had always bothered me about this track. . . . For years, I had been thinking to myself, ‘There’s some ultra-low-frequency rumbling going on. What the hell is that?’ I checked the multitracks, and—there it was, coming from that lap steel guitar. It wasn’t coming from the guitar itself or David’s amp. It was being picked up in the studio somehow. And we were able to get it out.”


Not quite, it would seem Or is he just talking about the surround sound mix?

There you go - User211 - always getting to the bottom of things

There's plenty of other low end oddities around - why didn't he notice those?

 

[JMAUSGP]

DTB300,

Yes, communicating via text without all the other visual and verbal cues you get with face to face is much harder and more time consuming. I think your MCH description speaks to the heart of the issue. If you are inclined to like 2 channel, then having the sound bounce around the room will be gimmicky and probably un-enjoyable but for many of those inclined to the MCH camp, the more the sound surrounds or rather the more gimmicky the better and the better the MCH experience, from a MCH point of view. Hence the most likely reason that DSOTM is rated as one of the top, if not the top MCH SACD, but remember that is from a MCH perspective. Anyway, the real issue is the LF sounds on DSOTM. I have listened with and without ARM, I listened in MCH, I have listened at the time stamps that Justin and Tim mentioned and I do not hear anything that does not fit with the whole of the DSOTM music experience. However, I have not played with the controls on the Descent i yet and I have not played DSOTM on my other system since I added a new high resolution sub. My other ML system has a sub woofer that is set to go to 20hz cleanly and it can be set to go down to 10hz if I need it to. These days I use it strictly for HT, but I use to use it for MCH music too and I use to listen to DSOTM in six-axis surround on a Citation 5.0 all the time. I will give the HT system a listen tonight and see what shows up at the time stamps that already have been posted. As for my DOTSM copies, they are the 30th anniversary edition in SACD, a regular CD that I bought back in the 70s, although I will probably pick up a new copy today just for giggles and a vinyl copy that I purchased back in the 70s. From reading the posts so far, it sounds like I should be able to hear this on any of the above mentioned sources, given the right settings and circumstances. Up until this moment though I have not heard this anomaly and I guess I am starting to wonder if I really want too or for that matter if I really need too. After all, several others have confirmed to Jeff that he is hearing something odd so I guess it really doesn't matter if I or others on the forum can hear it or not. Maybe it is for the best if we don't hear it. After all it is widely known that Jeff is squarely in the 2-channel camp and DSOTM is probably my favorite MCH album of all time and if I hear this sound and it ruins DSOTM for me, well then Jeff will probably laugh all the way too his next equipment review. Maybe this is the first strike in the war on the channels and we MCH guys and girls just don't know it yet.

 

[DrJRapp]

I hear this sound and it ruins DSOTM for me, well then Jeff will probably laugh all the way too his next equipment review.

IMHO I seriously doubt this sound will ruin anything for you. Part of the wonder of recorded music is the fact that it was created by human beings and it has character which includes it's faults.

 

[JMAUSGP]

IMHO I seriously doubt this sound will ruin anything for you. Part of the wonder of recorded music is the fact that it was created by human beings and it has character which includes it's faults.

Man all this time I thought I was at least decent at joking. Seriously I do appreciate what you are saying.

Justin,

Bravo, you have got to the bottom of the mystery. I just read the linked article you posted and it was great. I now am pretty sure, as in certain, that the DVDA 4.1 version of DSOTM that I have is from Alan Parsons. The buzz on the web, indicated that it was him, but after reading that article, I am convinced that it is. If you like DSOTM in SACD MCH then sometime you should download the DVDA 4.1 version and give it a spin. It is definitely different than the Guthrie mix and it does exactly what Parsons describes in this article. Very cool, some like it better than the 5.1 mix, I can honestly say I like them both pretty much equal, since listening to either one of them is a great MCH experience, which is what both men intended in the first place.:bowdown: Seriously Justin, that was some great detective work, I wouldn't have pegged you to have skills that would indicate you work for the Man.

 

[User211]

Cool.

I'm kind of wondering why I find it so easy to detect. I think it might be because I play guitar and bass. Not a great on the bass, but I know exactly how a bass behaves sonically. So when I listen to Money at 2:30, say, I easily hear what's wrong... or maybe my LF hearing isn't shot yet, but give it time...

 

[tonepub]

Glad to hear a few other people are hearing this too..

I checked your various time indexes last night and yep, that's where it is. It's pretty subtle, but it is there. Just a little bit annoying.

Now, I just switch the Manley Massive Passive in the system and cut the LF a touch and back in business.

 

[Dreamer]

OK, I had to listen to DSotM a few times to get it--the first time through "Money", I was just so into it that I forgot to really LISTEN for sounds--I was just grooving on the music so much...

(for reference, I listened to the original 1984 US release on CD, from Capital, CDP 7 46001 2)

But yes, upon turning off my "get into the music" headspace, and dialing up my "listen for weird stuff that just ain't right" frame of mind, I can DEFINITELY hear something VERY low freq on Money at 2:30. I don't get it so much as a rumble, but more like a harmonic resonance--very subtle and almost ethereal, which is an odd sensation for a sound of such low frequency.

The explanation in that article about a resonance in the lap guitar is a good place to start, but I have another theory.

At least the way I'm hearing it, this "rumble" is keeping pretty much perfect time (although just a fraction behind, and decaying longer than) the bass drum. You gotta remember, on most of the tracks of DSotM, Nick Mason is riding that bass pedal like the Energizer Bunny on crack. On many tracks (Money included), it's not so much "keeping the beat" as is it filling up the room with low-frequency drum-roll. I think (and this is just my opinion as a drummer and amateur recordist) that perhaps what we are hearing isn't an actual "sound" that was produced by an instrument, or a car or a subway, or misplaced lap guitar or a crafty engineer, or even, as DTB300 is suggesting might be an odd room interaction of some member's listening rooms, but RATHER it is a low-freq harmonic resonance in the drum studio that is propagating from the quickly-repeating bass drum line, and the interaction of those relentless back-to-back kick pedal beats with the mode of the room where the drums were being played. Naturally, some member's listening rooms are going to accentuate this subharmonic subtlety and some are not. The fact that DTB300 doesn't hear this does not surprise me. His listening room is perhaps the most harmonically neutral listening room I've ever been in, and presents the closest thing to a room that is devoid of harmonic reinforcement that I've ever experienced. This makes for a VERY clean sonic palette on which his excellent gear can throw a VERY true soundstage.

This would also explain why JonFo doesn't seem to hear it--his room is acoustically treated to the "N-th" degree, AND he's running some pretty NASA-esque DSP gear to help keep things flat.

I DO hear SOMETHING, and that something is VERY low freq, but I can't go so far as to call it a "rumble". It's right on the low end of the audible spectrum for me--more like a visceral frequency, which for my ears would put it somewhere below 22 Hz.

So what we have her, IMO, is a sonic "Perfect Storm"--a multitude of factors coming together in a way that for some members, creates a very noticeable and unpleasant harmonic anomaly. It's a combination, IMO, of some weird ultra-low harmonic resonance that is, in fact, IN the recording, being produced very accurately by some people's way-down-deep subwoofers, and being further reinforced by previously unnoticed listening room acoustic interactivities.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it...

--Richard