Australian Audio Show

[User211]

From that well known, trusted source, the Free Dictionary Definition of slam:

1. To shut with force and loud noise: slammed the door.
2. To put, throw, or otherwise forcefully move so as to produce a loud noise: slammed the book on the desk.
3. To hit or strike with great force.
4. Slang To criticize harshly; censure forcefully.

Therefore, a drum kit generates slam by default in the flesh. Reproducing it accurately? Never heard a system that can do it convincingly,

 

[amey01]

Shall I start a thread on cultural hifi differences where we can see what others think?

Should be interesting.

Adam, I am tempted to come over to Melbourne for a look see how antipodeans do hifi shows.

Let me know if you do......

 

[tsv_1]

Hey Jeff,

Hope all is well in NZ

I'm not entirely sure slam is a cultural preference (i.e. desirable hifi atrribute) in the US. Could be. I think your proposal to start a cultural thread could yield interesting results.

For me, slam is an element of both reproduced as well as live sound (most usually from drums as Justin stated) that I find missing from panel based systems. Even good dynamic speakers (that I have heard) have trouble keeping up but they do seem to come a lot closer than panels. My son has a drum kit setup in our greatroom (much to his mother's dismay). When the kids go in there and have at it, even when they are playing thoughtfully and not just hammering, there is a coherent, visceral impact that, to my body and brain, register as "slam". I don't get that in my listening room, sadly. Maybe I just need more fine-tuning... or maybe I'll never get it (short of relocating that drum kit to my audio cave )

BTW, the vast majority of music I listen to is either folksy or jazzy female vocals, or classical and pre-classical - not a lot of inherent slam in either. But when I do spin something up that's a bit more aggressive I expect my system to deliver... and it does - magically - but sans slam.

Necrosuit is a drummer - would actually like to hear his angle on this as well.

Cheers

 

[Bernard]

Re slam Bernard - a drum kit has oddles of it.

Ok, granted that there is nothing quite like the solid, somewhat uncomfortable thump ("slam") you get in your chest from the bass drum in a marching band, but apart from that I think of sound more like a series of waves than a series of punches; e.g. your avatar provides slam. If your feline friend were sparring using the wave technique, he/she/it would be quickly knocked out.

Jeff, perhaps it is more than cultural differences we need to discuss. Treading warily into the subject, may I humbly postulate that it's the type of music to which you listen that determines whether or not you look for slam. If you're into heavy metal then slam is an attribute for which you look, whereas if you're into genteel Baroque you don't care about slam from your harpsichord. Please note that I am not slamming metal. And if you're ambidextrous, as Todd seems to be, you want it all !

 

[tsv_1]

I just want the music recreated in my room to exhibit as many characteristics of live music as possible. When any one aspect is lacking, my panties get all in a twist.

 

[amey01]

I just want the music recreated in my room to exhibit as many characteristics of live music as possible. When any one aspect is lacking, my panties get all in a twist.

Likewise! I must say - this "slam" thing - for me it has nothing to do with dynamics. In fact, I would be quite happy to have less dynamics on most recordings I own. Nothing annoys me more than having to constantly fiddle with the volume as parts of the recording go from so loud they nearly blow my ears off to so quiet I can't hear a thing.

"Slam" - on the other hand - I define as something more of an intensity and a presence that you just don't generally get with recorded music (as per another recent thread here). It has nothing to do with it being louder - just more intense and "there".

 

[Gordon Gray]

I just want the music recreated in my room to exhibit as many characteristics of live music as possible. When any one aspect is lacking, my panties get all in a twist.

Todd,

Sounds to me you may be crossing into the dark side of this HOBBY and forgetting about the main reason we are all doing this.


GG

 

[tsv_1]

Todd,

Sounds to me you may be crossing into the dark side of this HOBBY and forgetting about the main reason we are all doing this.


GG

Gordon,

Seems like a little baiting going on here... but I'll bite (as if I wouldn't, right? )

First, I'll assume that by "main reason", you refer to the love of music. If wrong, please interject.

I guess it depends on whether or not you feel that the love of music and the definition of "audiophile" are mutually exclusive. I don't subscribe to that notion.

An audiophile, from Latin audio[1] "I hear" and Greek philos[2] "loving," is a hobbyist who seeks high-quality audio reproduction via the use of specialized high-end audio electronics.[3][4] Audiophiles prefer to listen to music at a quality level that is as close to the original performance as possible using high fidelity components.

I've said before elsewhere... I think many of us who enjoy this hobby are after the goose-bump effect. Perhaps not as an obsessive all-or-nothing mission, but certainly something to strive for (IMO). Different people hit upon this in different ways. For me, listening to music I love through a system that gets out of the way entirely (i.e. does everything right) is an important element in transporting me "there". It's a complex chain of events that is easily disturbed. As such, ensuring that the playback system is up to the task is, for me, important.

Cheers

 

[User211]

You know what I've come to the conclusion on? All that slam we were discussing and hypothesizing about before? It comes down to nothing more than spatially and temporaly coherent air pressure transients. That is, time-aligned diaphragm movement. The more coherent movement range (i.e. tranducer travel) the more slam. I think ML "panels" suffer in this respect because even though you can occasionally see the film vibrate, it's clearly (by design) never moving as far, back and forth, as mid-bass and bass dynamic drivers are designed to do. I think Apogee has more panel movement than ML (Justin, correct me if I'm wrong) and that's all there is to it. Some would argue that ML makes up for it because there's so much effective radiating area compared to dynamic drivers, but I say the slam is missing (or attenuated) because that area is simply too distributed across a wide range. This must be imminently measurable with good SPL meters in a highly controlled A/B test environment.

So, Justin, you may want to suggest to Graz (which I'm sure he's already digested and re-digested a million times) that well controlled linear movement with expanded travel of the diaphragm as a goal will put him over the top in terms of worlds best

Of course anyone from ML reading this is more than welcome to deflate my crude analysis and respond with why the CLX LF cross-over point isn't lower than what it's currenty rated for (i.e. transducer area + linear travel = bass : assuming no backwave cancellation, etc)

Flame on

I'll add to the amateur thesis movement with the following. Anyone is welcome to correct the dreamed up supposed realities expressed within.

1) CLS was often quoted as having one note bass. Aren't there 4 CLX bass sub-panels in one bass panel each of differing size? This is presumably to provide a more even bass frequency response. But the problem is the panels are too small to allow significant movement and hence low frequencies simply cannot be reproduced.

2) - 1) is no problem - we'll sell a dynamic solution in the form of 2 Descent i's.

3) Watching the Apogee bass panel with lights pointing straight at the panel, a gauze effect is seen because of the protective mesh in front of the foil. Depending on the bass frequency being reproduced (500 down to 25Hz odd) you can see which part of the panel gets excited. The higher the frequency, the higher up the panel excursion appears. The panel varies in width from top to bottom - the bottom substantially wider.

4) There is more excursion in the Apogee bass panel. Much more than a CLX can muster. If you drive it carefully with a 15Hz bass frequency, the excursions become massive very quickly and you wonder for the safety of the speaker (and rightly so). It is just damned alarming!!!

5) The Apogee driver is "single ended" - it doesn't require stators on either side. What's more, the driving force of passing a current over the foil in the presence of a strong magnetic field (144 magnets per panel - and they aren't small magnets!) means the foil can be located some considerable distance from the "driving" side i.e. the magnets. Therefore, much bigger excursions can occur.

6) There is more slam than even a dynamic ML - e.g. more slam than my Ascents could reproduce.

Another thing I'm left thinking is that there is just more force generated by the ribbon approach.

I've committed the sin of buying a 3D TV. I was watching Hurt Locker the other day and the speed of some of the gun shots and bombs going off had to be heard to be believed.

After hearing the CLX playing rock (ZZ Top) I have to say I agree with Todd. They do it brilliantly - really does sound good - but with one chief component missing. Slam!

 

[tsv_1]

Justin, Reading through your textual gesticulation reminded me of something... audio loudspeakers seem like an exsquisite (future) home for the application of room temp superconductors... do they not? Imagine brilliantly designed supercon-alloy-ribbons in opposition to fixed high-kelvin composite magnets. Efficiency ratings in the 110dB/W/M range and more slam than one's lower intestines could ever hope to endure without immediate and complete embarassment.

Not to mention the other myriad applications throughout the audio chain that would/could benefit. An enjoyable thought exercise IMO.

BTW, I noticed some very poor wording (on my part) quoted in your response where I mentioned the CLX LF cross-over point. I meant to say "CLX LF roll-off". Not that it really matters. Just wanted to clarify my point.

As an aside, I enjoyed Hurt Locker... even in 2D.

 

[User211]

Room temp super conductors have recently been utilised to great effect at Apogee development labs (chez Justin). Fact.:rocker::devil::banana::clap::guitarman:

Syngery does use neodymium magnets for high efficiency, though. Trouble is, mag prices are going through the roof.

Hurt Locker was a 2D BluRay watched using the 2D->3D processing in the telly. It works rather better than you might think.

 

[amey01]

I don't subscribe to that notion.

Agree. If music is all you care about, this will serve you more than amply.



And you'll save yourself a hell of a lot of money and bother.

Clearly, nobody here fits that category.

 

[Bernard]

Adam, that's the deluxe version of what I had when I first moved to Canada.

 

[amey01]

Haha - yes, I had one too - circa 1989 when I was 12 years old! It had a Line In too so I could connect a CD player.

I was never happy with the sound though. Really, it is what got me in to hi-fi. When I started a part-time job, I went out to buy better speakers for it - luckily I went to the right hi-fi shop that took time to explain to me that better speakers required to be driven from a decent amplifier. (Good salesmen they were). That there was no point connecting good speakers to a boombox, so away I went with my full wallet (not a good business decision, but good in the long term). Sure enough, I was back a few months later and came away with a H/K integrated, Luxman CD player, and KEF K120 speakers........it had all started.

 

[amey01]

The time is nigh.......I fly down tomorrow night......pics and report forthcoming (maybe Sunday).

 

[Bernard]

I hope (F)jeff makes it too, as he suggested earlier in this thread.

 

[Krazikiwi]

I hope (F)jeff makes it too, as he suggested earlier in this thread.

Sorry Folks,

Decided on week of touring the southern part of New Zealand on a motorbike.........decisions, decisions!

Looking forward to Adam's photos and comments.

Fjeff

 

[amey01]

Okay - here goes. In order to enjoy the audio show more, I ditched the EOS for my little PowerShot - Mistake number one. You guys should have forewarned me!! The pics have paid the price. Sorry.

 

[amey01]

Melbourne

Firstly, some pics of Melbourne to get you in the mood. Cold, rainy, windy......that's Melbourne.

 

[amey01]

Here goes.....