Amp recomendations for EM's

[DallasBaker]

I am looking for amp recomendations for my new Electromotions. I love the sound of tube amps, but read a white paper discussing how they hate ESL's. I am not opposed to solid state amps. I just want the best sound for my buck. My musical taste vary from classical to rock and everything inbetween. I like it a little loud, but not ridiculous. I live in an area without high-end retailers and thus have no way to sample amps. I realize much is left to personal preference, but would just like someone to list off a few entry level models they have had good experiences with.
Any help or suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Thank You!
Dallas

 

[TomDac]

http://www.martinloganowners.com/fo...uently-asked-question-on-this-site.-READ-THIS!!

 

[Northy]

Tom's article will give you pleny of useful information. If you want a quick answer, first, you have to define "entry level." Is it around $1,000 for you? The EM is not a bi-wire/ampable speaker. So one amp has to provide the current to the panel and the woofer. You should look into brands such as ADCOM (used ones are great values) and Parasound (Audio Advisor currently has them on sale). These amps will be stable even into 4-Ohm loads.

I hope this helps.

 

[DallasBaker]

Thanks Tom. I had previously read that article. It contains some good information. As you are aware, there are just so many flavors to choose from. I have considered the Jolida JD-1501P, Primaluna's as well as the Emotive. All seem to have excelent reviews. Clarifying entry-level, I would like to keep it around $1500 or less.

 

[MiTT]

Both Dave (Twich54) and myself have had good luck with Rogue Audio tube amps on our bigger stats. I've since moved on to a larger BAT, but Dave still uses the Rogue mono blocks in his system. While those are out of your price range, the smaller stereo and integrated tube amps that Rogue has may fit in your budget and they also get great reviews.

There is absolutely no reason why a well designed tube amp won't work amazingly well with stats. The Member Systems here bear that out quite well!

 

[Pneumonic]

Whatever you do .... keep in mind that, all else being equal, more watts is best.

So many people (unknowingly) run underpowered amps on their speakers which causes their amps to run non linearly during musical peaks. It's amazing how much power is required to properly run even conventional speakers nevermind a set of Logans.

It was a huge eye opener for me when I measured (with an oscilloscope) the inputs of my CLSes for the first time. At my normal listening volume, in my regular sized room, my very popular high current amp, was clipping at about 50 volts which translates to around 625 watts power demand. This meant my amp was being strained, adding distortions, losing detail and compressing dynamics. Even though my amp was capable of pushing over 600 watts.

My message ..... get tons of power, especially if you like to play music loud or if you are in a large room.

 

[DallasBaker]

I am still learing all that I can. I do understand how ESL's require a large amount of power, acting as a capacitive load rather than as a resistive load in conventional loudspeakers. One paticular white paper discusses how Tube amps are bad at handling "current clipping" due to their high output impedance, yet I have read post from many members who are very happy with their tube amps. I also understand that among amps, all power output is not equal. I plan to purchase a used quality amp for my first go around, taking the plunge and experiementing a bit. After all, that is part of the joy of being an audiophile!

Thanks for all the input guys. I hope to post a pic of my completed system in a few weeks.

 

[mikegeorge]

I have been listening to my CLX's with a 10 watt Sophia Electric Baby tube amp. My SS amp is Pass Labs 30 watt INT-30A.

 

[snyderkv]

I have been listening to my CLX's with a 10 watt Sophia Electric Baby tube amp. My SS amp is Pass Labs 30 watt INT-30A.

Dallas, so you've seen two contradicting statements, one who is clipping with 600 watts and one who is happy with 10 watts. Incase you were confused, here is another link that could help

http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?14606-Getting-above-92dB

 

[ML Goat]

Mike,what was your point to that statement? Are you saying you like the baby tube better? I'm looking at maybe getting a decent tube amp to run the ESL's ,but for under $700. Maybe a Jolida or something.

 

[mikegeorge]

Not even sure I had a point, just that even 10 watts works with CLX's.

 

[Pneumonic]

Dallas, so you've seen two contradicting statements, one who is clipping with 600 watts and one who is happy with 10 watts. Incase you were confused, here is another link that could help

http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?14606-Getting-above-92dB

They aren't contradicting statements. Most any amp will run ESL's. Most will eventually clip while doing so however.

I have had CLSes forever and have run them with both SS and with tube power amps .... with as much as 2k watts and as little as 25 watts available to power them. All of the amps worked and drove them well enough to enjoy the sound. What caused them to sound different from each other was dependent upon what distortions they added when forced into clipping conditions.

Stick a scope on your amp and turn up the volume ........ most users would be shocked to see the clipping action happening.

 

[ML Goat]

Can you tell a difference in sound between the tube and SS amp? Is the tube sound warmer?

 

[Pneumonic]

Can you tell a difference in sound between the tube and SS amp? Is the tube sound warmer?

Plenty of factors influence how an amp and speaker interact but, yeah, tubes can distort and add "warmer" colourations. The output tranny can impact, and colour the sound also. Depending on impedance matching of taps, some tube amps roll off highs so sound less aggressive, or warmer than solid state designs.

 

[ML Goat]

I'm under the impression that amps don't sound radically different from each other,that amps are what they are and price is the whole deciding factor. Exactly why so many people gravitate towards Emotiva. If you have a lot of disposable income,buy a Sunfire for 5K. If you put that next to an Emotiva,chances are,your not going to hear a 4.5K difference. Its like owning a Corvette instead of a Ferrari. The Ferrari isn't going to blow the doors off the Vette,but you have the prestige behind it. Probably not the best analogy,but you get what I'm saying.. I doubt if I swapped out the Emotiva for a Peachtree Nova ect..,I'm going to just have a giant grin on my face from the difference in sound,Its just not going to be there.. Correct me if I'm wrong..

 

[Pneumonic]

I'm under the impression that amps don't sound radically different from each other,that amps are what they are and price is the whole deciding factor. Exactly why so many people gravitate towards Emotiva. If you have a lot of disposable income,buy a Sunfire for 5K. If you put that next to an Emotiva,chances are,your not going to hear a 4.5K difference. Its like owning a Corvette instead of a Ferrari. The Ferrari isn't going to blow the doors off the Vette,but you have the prestige behind it. Probably not the best analogy,but you get what I'm saying.. I doubt if I swapped out the Emotiva for a Peachtree Nova ect..,I'm going to just have a giant grin on my face from the difference in sound,Its just not going to be there.. Correct me if I'm wrong..

Amps can sound very different from each other if they aren't up to the challenge of properly powering the speaker they are asked to drive. This is true for any speaker in existence but, can be even more of an issue with a challenging load such as an ESL.

When searching for an amp to do the job on Logans I suggest to find one that is stable into a reactive load. In addition, you'll want to use an amp that has a power supply that can

a) supply enough output current to properly drive the speakers during low impedance conditions (ie at high frequencies).
b) swing enough voltage to play the speakers, to your desired volume level, without clipping.

 

[DallasBaker]

Well guys I bought a dc10audio Maestro. I will give feedback as soon as I get it in.

 

[roberto]

Amps can sound very different from each other if they aren't up to the challenge of properly powering the speaker they are asked to drive. This is true for any speaker in existence but, can be even more of an issue with a challenging load such as an ESL.

When searching for an amp to do the job on Logans I suggest to find one that is stable into a reactive load. In addition, you'll want to use an amp that has a power supply that can

a) supply enough output current to properly drive the speakers during low impedance conditions (ie at high frequencies).
b) swing enough voltage to play the speakers, to your desired volume level, without clipping.

Hola... the behaviour of the stat panel is like a capacitor, not an inductor. The impedance drops like a brick above 10KHz. On the other hand, on these days, power is not the factor. The sensitivity as an example, of the Electromotions is better than 91dB/2.83V/m. So in a not so big room, you can use 20W to drive them easy without clipping the amplifier. To me, the clue is quality watts, not quantity. I have a customer who is using a Viva power amplifier with only 18 watts/channel and the sound is outstanding!. Clear, crispy highs, with tons of mid range. His speakers is a Montis model. It is a very impressing sound. Happy listening!

 

[Pneumonic]

Hola... the behaviour of the stat panel is like a capacitor, not an inductor.

This is true; thus my suggesting using an amp that is stable into a reactive load.

The impedance drops like a brick above 10KHz. On the other hand, on these days, power is not the factor.

This is true; thus my suggesting using an amp that has sufficient current drive during high f (low Z) conditions.

The sensitivity as an example, of the Electromotions is better than 91dB/2.83V/m. So in a not so big room, you can use 20W to drive them easy without clipping the amplifier. To me, the clue is quality watts, not quantity. I have a customer who is using a Viva power amplifier with only 18 watts/channel and the sound is outstanding!. Clear, crispy highs, with tons of mid range. His speakers is a Montis model. It is a very impressing sound. Happy listening!

Sure, you can run ESL's with smaller wattage amps and you may like the way they sound. My point, however, is that much of that sound you hear may be in the form of distortion due to the clipping action of the amp being used. Now it is certainly possible that an 18w/c amp can perform adequately (especially with an ESL with high sensitivity, benign impedance curve, in a small room, playing not very dynamic musical pieces, at relatively low volume) but chances are high that if you stick an oscilloscope across the amps outputs, you'll see clipped waveforms.

This is really the only viable way to test. If you haven't done so yourself, I strongly encourage you to perform such a test. Scopes are readily available used and fairly cheap. You can even buy digital ones these days.

 

[roberto]

Yup. I do understand regarding the oscilloscope waveform of clipping. Besides, as you do know, the clipping could be at the positive of the wave or at the negative of it... or both at the same time. The clipping point is where a DC voltage starts to show, because the amp can not handle more power. When the amp is at a clipping stage, the sound is horrible, but many people does not realize that they are over driving the amp, making (a cone speaker) to heat the voice coil at a melting point. This issue (specially when an equalizer is use as a tone control) gave a lot of work. I did repaired a lot of cone speakers due to the clipping power abuse. Old Martin Logan speakers need a lot of quality stable power to drive them. Because they are not easy to drive, due to their impedance curve behaviour and hard sensitivity, many manufactures like Conrad Johnson, Krell, Mark Levinson, Audio Research Company, Jeff Rowland, Bryston, Classe, Aragon, etc, to name a few, used the speakers that you own as a "tool design". The CLS were at their test bench for design. On now days, the efficiency of the ML speakers had changed dramatically. This feature allows you to use a wider range and brands of amplifiers to drive them nicely. You can train your ears, and beyond. How can you measure the feeling of a musician? How can you measure love or hate? And music as a way to express this. But please do not misunderstand me. I do know what you are trying to tell us since the beginning. It is the importance to have a stable amp, than the one that does not, to drive a reactive load. What I believe, it that the amplifiers, due to their design, sound different, without clipping. Some show better the musician feeling than others. Believe me when I say that I do understand your point! Happy listening.