I have heard the prologue 2 - I believe it was - hooked to some cone speakers at a store. I thought it sounded pretty good - bass was a smidge on the 'big' side - but I only noticed when a tympani was hit.... But, I liked it nonetheless.... I understand the issues with the ML speakers - but just from an amp perspective -- I think Prima Luna has created a pretty good name for itself for both affordable and quality amps. They get nothing but rave reviews from both the rags and from their owners. I think the emotiva and the prima luna are going to be a night/day difference. You are either going to like it - or hate it. I'm guessing the latter since you are used to the prima luna sound. I just have my doubts whether you are going to get the depth/imaging that you will out of the prima luna. just my 2 cents / opinion etc....
Would this amp be an updgrade?
- Thread starter Peter_Klim
- Start date
Help Support MartinLogan Audio Owners Forum:
I Don't See The Math
Assuming you're after imaging, clarity and accurate representation of sound. The math here doesn't make sense to me.
A 40w in to 2ch amp isn't going to compete against a 500w amp in to 4ohms in terms of imaging at regular listening levels.
The "depth/imaging" you're hearing is probably going to be tube distortion at it's finest.
Do the math, if wanting to hear your system at 90dB at a seating position of 10feet away you're going to suffer the penalty of perceived volume loss at -10dB. Keep in mind the cost of going up 3dB is doubling the power. The 40w tube amp started distorting long ago with the regular "swings" in sound. For it to go up 10dB it needs to produce power it simply can't. FYI a home theater rating you're after is 105dB. This means at 10feet away you're going to really need to produce 115dB worth of power.
Here's a quick article on it:
http://www.hometheatermag.com/bootcamp/112/
Sorry I can't see how you would recommend a 40w amp for these speakers. That is just not enough power even if they "double" well. I'm sure that's why they sound all "warm and fuzzy" since they're distorting all day long.
Assuming you're after imaging, clarity and accurate representation of sound. The math here doesn't make sense to me.
A 40w in to 2ch amp isn't going to compete against a 500w amp in to 4ohms in terms of imaging at regular listening levels.
The "depth/imaging" you're hearing is probably going to be tube distortion at it's finest.
Do the math, if wanting to hear your system at 90dB at a seating position of 10feet away you're going to suffer the penalty of perceived volume loss at -10dB. Keep in mind the cost of going up 3dB is doubling the power. The 40w tube amp started distorting long ago with the regular "swings" in sound. For it to go up 10dB it needs to produce power it simply can't. FYI a home theater rating you're after is 105dB. This means at 10feet away you're going to really need to produce 115dB worth of power.
Here's a quick article on it:
http://www.hometheatermag.com/bootcamp/112/
Sorry I can't see how you would recommend a 40w amp for these speakers. That is just not enough power even if they "double" well. I'm sure that's why they sound all "warm and fuzzy" since they're distorting all day long.
Last edited:
Spike
Well-known member
Here's the math...
Dynamic Range and Power Claims
Here are the links to the threads I've participated in on this very subject of comparing big sand amps to tubes...
Tubes & Logans
Tubes for ReQuests
Comparison - Pinius vs AES SixPacs
Bi-amping - solid state to tubes
Happy reading
Spike
Here's the link to the a thread discussing the power requirements:
Dynamic Range and Power Claims
Here are the links to the threads I've participated in on this very subject of comparing big sand amps to tubes...
Tubes & Logans
Tubes for ReQuests
Comparison - Pinius vs AES SixPacs
Bi-amping - solid state to tubes
Happy reading
Spike
Spike
Well-known member
Yeah, well, I consider this a "generic" guideline targeting the mass-market audience. Basically, it steers the user to look for an amp with a good power supply. Once you get pass that hurdle, you are now looking to strike a balance between quality versus quantity for a given budget.
Spike
Spike
Well-known member
Replying to Peter_Klim & 2beornot2bop
Peter_Klim,
I looked at the PL integrated and did not see pre-amp output. This lack of pre-amp output will preclude you from bi-amping successfully. You could put an Emotiva pre-amp in front of the PL, but I think the result won't be as transparent as what you're getting now with the PL. The reason being that the Emotiva will run the source signal through its circuitry and I doubt that the implementation of the Emotiva pre is a clean as that of the PL.
I beg to differ here. A while back, I was comparing amps in my system, Pass Aleph 2 (100 watt monoblocs) and my trusty Classe' (300 wpc) on bass duty and the difference was startling! The Pass Aleph 2 ATE my Classe' for lunch! The vocals and lower mid-bass were much more transparent, but with a tonal presence to it. Most people readily dismiss the importance of the bass amp, thinking to just put a high wattage amp and be done. Let's be reminded that the middle-C note (on the piano keyboard) produces a sound with a frequency of ~260Hz. On the newer logans, this middle-C note will be reproduced by the internal Class-D amp! With my passive ReQuests, I was able to hear this difference first hand by comparing the different amps driving the bass. This means that the vocal range (which is sensitive to human hearing) hovers in the range which is very susceptible to the quality of the solid-state amp driving the woofers.
Spike
Peter_Klim,
I looked at the PL integrated and did not see pre-amp output. This lack of pre-amp output will preclude you from bi-amping successfully. You could put an Emotiva pre-amp in front of the PL, but I think the result won't be as transparent as what you're getting now with the PL. The reason being that the Emotiva will run the source signal through its circuitry and I doubt that the implementation of the Emotiva pre is a clean as that of the PL.
2beornot2bop,2beornot2bop said:
I beg to differ here. A while back, I was comparing amps in my system, Pass Aleph 2 (100 watt monoblocs) and my trusty Classe' (300 wpc) on bass duty and the difference was startling! The Pass Aleph 2 ATE my Classe' for lunch! The vocals and lower mid-bass were much more transparent, but with a tonal presence to it. Most people readily dismiss the importance of the bass amp, thinking to just put a high wattage amp and be done. Let's be reminded that the middle-C note (on the piano keyboard) produces a sound with a frequency of ~260Hz. On the newer logans, this middle-C note will be reproduced by the internal Class-D amp! With my passive ReQuests, I was able to hear this difference first hand by comparing the different amps driving the bass. This means that the vocal range (which is sensitive to human hearing) hovers in the range which is very susceptible to the quality of the solid-state amp driving the woofers.
Spike
I'm actually pretty good with math and it is my opinion that no formula or statistic is going to get you where you want to go. You have to just listen. To compare a tube amp and it's sonic sig to a solid state amp really comes down to personal choice.
Peter_Klim
Well-known member
Thnaks everyone for all the replies!
I mainly wanted to change out the PL so I could get something with a remote, but didn't want to loose any sound quality.
I called Kevin at Upscale Audio where I purchased the PL 5 years ago. He was willing to give me full credit that I paid for the unit for a PL that does have remote control. I paid $900 for my PL (it was $1095 back then and my unit was one lent to a magazine for review so hence my discount; now it goes for $1599 an Upscale has it on sale since I called him Monday, for $1279) The one that does have remote is spuppose to be better overall, the ProLogue Premium Integrated Amplifier and goes for $2299.
I can't hear the difference between amps, at least not at the low level I listen to them, so I'm just going to save my $1400 and use it where it really matters: acoustic treatment, CDs, and vinyl. And just learn to deal with getting my a$$ up out of my chair to control the volume!
Thanks again!
I mainly wanted to change out the PL so I could get something with a remote, but didn't want to loose any sound quality.
I called Kevin at Upscale Audio where I purchased the PL 5 years ago. He was willing to give me full credit that I paid for the unit for a PL that does have remote control. I paid $900 for my PL (it was $1095 back then and my unit was one lent to a magazine for review so hence my discount; now it goes for $1599 an Upscale has it on sale since I called him Monday, for $1279) The one that does have remote is spuppose to be better overall, the ProLogue Premium Integrated Amplifier and goes for $2299.
I can't hear the difference between amps, at least not at the low level I listen to them, so I'm just going to save my $1400 and use it where it really matters: acoustic treatment, CDs, and vinyl. And just learn to deal with getting my a$$ up out of my chair to control the volume!
Thanks again!
2beornot2bop
Well-known member
Well being a piano player I can appreciate using a piano analogy to make ones point, however, I beg to differ with your differ and raise you a lowered 5th.
Okay, if you played jazz you'd have understood the humor.Back on point. Having owned your Aleph 2 mono's back in '99, and having sold them 5 months later because I found them extremely lacking in bass and musicality than my previously owned Aleph 5 and Aleph Os models, on my former CLSiiz's at the time. I believe it's not necessary to throw needless money into any amplifier resigned to 'woofer duty'. I couldn't justify the additional cost vs. benefit ratio of a pair of used $2800 Aleph 2 mono's over an Aragon 8008BB amplifier, a giant killer of an amp found used for as low as $800 on AG, or a BAT VK200, which just sold for $850. These are quality amps, both of which I preferred to the Aleph's, that would drive most any woofer into oblivion. Even the Sunfire amps, at 300/600 wpc offer stellar performance benefits, especially compared to high dollar amps. And last time I checked the author was considering an Emotiva product which is lo fi at best, so either of the suggestions I provided were a huge step up in performance for a very modest and affordable price. The last pair of used Aleph's on AG are amazingly still being listed at $2800. That obviously doesn't suit the author's budget. Where were you when the Aragon 8008 BB was a Stereophile A rated component, or did you simply hold your nose on that one?
2beornot2bop
Well-known member
Perhaps that's because you've not owned the product and you're going by figures alone? It's a valid question. Is there an echo in here? Okay, I'll say it again, all wattage is NOT created equal. Just because amp A is rated 500 watts and amp B is not is meaningless...there are far too many variables involved, i.e. room size, speaker type being driven, personal listening tastes, etc. I never listen above 65dB, therefore my demands are far less than someone who enjoys listening at a level that raises the roof whilst damaging their ears. The reality is the Prologue, as I've already indicated, due to its design characteristics for all intents and purposes performs like a 200 watt amplifier even though it's only rated 40wpc. Watts are meaningless, and personally I'd take the quality sound of a humble 10 watt 300B SET integ over a 500 watt ampzilla any day of the week.
Spike
Well-known member
Agreed 100% on the Aragon 8008BB and BAT equipment! Back in 1999, I helped a buddy built a CLS-based system with Aragon 8008BB amplifier. We were considering between the Krell KSA-100, Aragon 8008BB and the Mark Levinson No. 33H. The Krell KSA was a beast by itself but he could not see himself having a heater in his living room2beornot2bop said:Where were you when the Aragon 8008 BB was a Stereophile A rated component, or did you simply hold your nose on that one?
To be mentioned in the same sentence as Krell and Levinson speaks volume for the 8008BB! 'Nuf said!Spike
tsv_1
Well-known member
Thnaks everyone for all the replies!
I mainly wanted to change out the PL so I could get something with a remote, but didn't want to loose any sound quality.
I called Kevin at Upscale Audio where I purchased the PL 5 years ago. He was willing to give me full credit that I paid for the unit for a PL that does have remote control. I paid $900 for my PL (it was $1095 back then and my unit was one lent to a magazine for review so hence my discount; now it goes for $1599 an Upscale has it on sale since I called him Monday, for $1279) The one that does have remote is spuppose to be better overall, the ProLogue Premium Integrated Amplifier and goes for $2299.
I can't hear the difference between amps, at least not at the low level I listen to them, so I'm just going to save my $1400 and use it where it really matters: acoustic treatment, CDs, and vinyl. And just learn to deal with getting my a$$ up out of my chair to control the volume!
Thanks again!
Hi Peter,
I run PrimaLuna with my Summit-X and they sound insanely good - to me. Granted, my PLs are 70W monoblocks... so there is that difference relative to your integrated. But, having said that, if you're happy with the sound you have now, then I completely agree with you, put your money into media or other places that will help you further enjoy your current system.
However, since you did mention that you're really just looking for remote volume, there is another option... add an IR remote controlled stepped attenuator between your source units and your Dialogue One integrated. With this, you would get remote volume as well as remote source selection.
See here for the DIY stepped attenuator/selector. Perhaps this is of some interest if you're at all handy with a soldering iron.
It's obviously not going to yield any improvement in sound (i.e. extra stuff in the signal path)... but, it's effectively a passive remote volume, so it shouldn't add appreciably to your overall system noisefloor either (barring any non-ideal cable connections, etc). Plus, it's a very well documented DIY and looks (to me anyway) like a fun project.
The other option would be a Creek OBH-12 remote passive-pre/volume control.... but I just looked at those and was surprised to find they're now asking $499 for those little beasties. Then there's Placette... but that's crazy-money for just a passive volume control.
Oh well... food for thought.
Cheers,
-Todd
2beornot2bop
Well-known member
Agreed 100% on the Aragon 8008BB and BAT equipment! Back in 1999, I helped a buddy built a CLS-based system with Aragon 8008BB amplifier. We were considering between the Krell KSA-100, Aragon 8008BB and the Mark Levinson No. 33H. The Krell KSA was a beast by itself but he could not see himself having a heater in his living room
Spike
Well that's real interestin' especially since the famed Aragon 4004Mkii was reported to have been designed by none other than Dan D'Agostino of Krell. I've not owned the Aragon 4004Mkii nor the 8008BB, but even I know each of those amps have a huge following and solid reputation among real audiophiles...and if you see either of them pop up on AG they're often gone in one day. Sure, they're far more affordable than a pair of Aleph 2's, but they're solid amps. I've owned Aragon Palladium II mono's, and both the '04's and the '08BB's are cut from the same cloth as the Pal's. But hey, to even be mentioned in the same sentence as a pair of Lev' 33 H's...Spike, go ahead wif yo bad self!
2beornot2bop
Well-known member
I'm a late bloomer. These Prologue's were out for 5 years before I even heard of them. Where else can one find a used integ for $850 that's built to the standard of a $5k product, build wise, that will drive a pair of Vista's to mind blowing levels of performance, and if that wasn't enough, the operator can roll in EL34's, KT88's, KT90's and a few more tube types. Throw in some black bottle Shuguang's and boy, now you're cookin! The Chinese, with the assistance of a handfull of European and Canadian designers, are slowly establishing themselves to take over audio in the coming decade. No American company can compete with the Prologue gear, dollar for dollar.
Peter_Klim
Well-known member
I was reading up on the Prima Luna's and found this magazine review online (I purchased the issue back then and still have it). I wasn't going to read the last page because the review eneded the previous page, but I looked at it anyways. I noticed they had a serial number - it matches my unit, so Upscale was telling me the truth. Pretty cool that I'm using the same one the magazine had in their possession:
I own the actual unit reviewed in this magazine
Oh, which reminds me.... even though I purchased my Stage only a couple of years ago ( i guess a couple of years after its release), guess what serial number it has?
001
Peter_Klim
Well-known member
Todd, that link to the DIY remote is dead. But I went to the home page and saw a few different models. Which one is it?
Thanks!
tsv_1
Well-known member
Huh... sorry about that.
Please try this link: http://electronics-diy.com/electronic_schematic.php?id=601
