Wire -biwire questions.

[cocobob]

Right now I am using Monster 12g wire with banana ends from my integrated to the Vistas. I am going to order some better wire. Should I spend all my money on a really good one wire or get a set of bi wire' Does biwire help on ML speakers.I know wire is a touchy subject.Some say the cheapest wire is as good as better wire.Myself I have heard wire make a difference in good systems.I been looking at Kimber kable 8VS wire.Thanks for help/

 

[invenio]

What are you planning to upgrade to? If you just plan on getting some run of the mill 10 g wire your probably not going to see any performance difference. I use Signal Cable Ultra biwire with spade terminations between my ML Vantage and Conrad Johnson amp. What are you using for your amp? You may want to take that money and invest in something that gives you more perforamance for dollars spent. If you have a $10,000 amp, yeah get some really good cables as even a small performance boost is worth it. If you running them off a run-of-the-mill $500 receiver, save the money on the wires and buy a better preamp/amp. I do believe that wires make difference (speaker and more noticably interconnects), but it's a small portion of overall performance compared to performance improvements by upgradig speakers, amps, preamps, players, etc.

 

[twich54]

I use Signal Cable Ultra biwire with spade terminations

me too

If you have a $10,000 amp, yeah get some really good cables

correct.....like Signal Cable Ultra's........knowledge of our speakers, their capactive load they represent, legth of cable run, etc as this relates to cable specification is as important or IMO, more important than satisfying your ego with big $$ 'names'.

coco, I'm not trying to curb your enthusiasim for new wire....well maybe I am..... anyways, without knowing your system and the room in which it resides I'm willing to 'bet the farm' I could find better areas for you to spend your hard earned $$ on at the moment.

 

[dmusoke]

Why prefer BiWire cable over using Single cable with the metal jumpers provided by the speaker? This would be a cheaper option yielding similar results, correct?

 

[invenio]

Why prefer BiWire cable over using Single cable with the metal jumpers provided by the speaker? This would be a cheaper option yielding similar results, correct?

Well, basically the idea is that biwire will give you better audio quality. Many will say cables don't make difference. If you are a believer in that philosophy, then you should buy lamp cord as that will be the cheapest. However, if you do believe that cables have a significant effect on sound, then biwire may improve the sound compared to a single cable connected to one terminal (with a jumper to the other set).

 

[roberto]

Hola dmusoke... why don't you give it a try, and tell us your findings. Bi-wired is to my ears, more dynamic and has better stage presentation. The bass is robust and well defined. Some here can tell a difference, perhaps you might find this difference and feel that bi-wired sound is more spacious, more "less effort" to do the job of playing difficult passages over the music. Just, trust your ears and follow what they are saying to you, no matter what I just wrote. Also, note that the level knob (volume) with bi-wired is at less position than if you use single wired. Let's say that at normal listening level with single wired, your volume knob at your receiver/preamp/integrated/ is at 11 o'clock. Bi-wired for the same SPL usually is at 10 o'clock. If this is so, then you are using less power from your amp to do the same job, and this energy saving could make to your amp, to sing better. Happy listening!

 

[dmusoke]

Well, basically the idea is that biwire will give you better audio quality. Many will say cables don't make difference. If you are a believer in that philosophy, then you should buy lamp cord as that will be the cheapest. However, if you do believe that cables have a significant effect on sound, then biwire may improve the sound compared to a single cable connected to one terminal (with a jumper to the other set).

Maybe i wasn't clear up front.... I was referring to Signal Cables Bi-wire versus their Single-wire Ultra cables. Why not the single-wire and a jumper set on the speakers? Same effect as the BiWire?

 

[dmusoke]

Hola dmusoke... why don't you give it a try, and tell us your findings. Bi-wired is to my ears, more dynamic and has better stage presentation. The bass is robust and well defined. Some here can tell a difference, perhaps you might find this difference and feel that bi-wired sound is more spacious, more "less effort" to do the job of playing difficult passages over the music. Just, trust your ears and follow what they are saying to you, no matter what I just wrote. Also, note that the level knob (volume) with bi-wired is at less position than if you use single wired. Let's say that at normal listening level with single wired, your volume knob at your receiver/preamp/integrated/ is at 11 o'clock. Bi-wired for the same SPL usually is at 10 o'clock. If this is so, then you are using less power from your amp to do the same job, and this energy saving could make to your amp, to sing better. Happy listening!

Roberto ... Isn't a BiWre simply a 1-to-2 split at the end of the Single-wire cable? I'm not trying to be argumentative ... just want to learn more about cable configurations.

http://signalcable.com/ultraspeaker.html

 

[invenio]

Maybe i wasn't clear up front.... I was referring to Signal Cables Bi-wire versus their Single-wire Ultra cables. Why not the single-wire and a jumper set on the speakers? Same effect as the BiWire?

Maybe I miss-understood? I took this as a question of which is better: Biwire vs "Single Wire with jumpers". If that is the question, the answer is the same, some feel that the biwire gives better performance. ML obviously agrees to biwiring as potentially improving the sound as there would be no other reason to put two sets of terminals on a speaker that is not capable of "bi-AMPing".

 

[dmusoke]

Maybe I miss-understood? I took this as a question of which is better: Biwire vs "Single Wire with jumpers". If that is the question, the answer is the same, some feel that the biwire gives better performance. ML obviously agrees to biwiring as potentially improving the sound as there would be no other reason to put two sets of terminals on a speaker that is not capable of "bi-AMPing".

Yes, you're correct. I have a Sunfire amp (TGA7401) with both Current & Voltage Source outputsfor the FL & FR outputs. I was considering running the current output to the ESL panel on my Spires and Voltage output to the Woofer section. But this ideal situation is somewhat expensive as i have to run two pairs of wires per speaker. Right now, i use the voltage outputs to the Spire with the provided ML jumpers. I'm just trying to get the most bang for the buck without throwing my brains aside...

 

[invenio]

Roberto ... Isn't a BiWre simply a 1-to-2 split at the end of the Single-wire cable? I'm not trying to be argumentative ... just want to learn more about cable configurations.

http://signalcable.com/ultraspeaker.html

Your are correct. Biwire is essentially a "Y" split cable. One end has a single termination and the other has two. There are three main speaker cable setup that people use: Single wire, biwire, and biamp.

 

[invenio]

Yes, you're correct. I have a Sunfire amp (TGA7401) with both Current & Voltage Source outputsfor the FL & FR outputs. I was considering running the current output to the ESL panel on my Spires and Voltage output to the Woofer section. But this ideal situation is somewhat expensive as i have to run two pairs of wires per speaker. Right now, i use the voltage outputs to the Spire with the provided ML jumpers. I'm just trying to get the most bang for the buck without throwing my brains aside...

Be careful, not all ML speakers with two terminals can be Bi-Amped. For example, my Martin Logan Vantages have two terminals but they can only be biWired, and not biAmped. Check in the manual to make sure they support biAmp if you are considering going that route.

 

[dmusoke]

Be careful, not all ML speakers with two terminals can be Bi-Amped. For example, my Martin Logan Vantages have two terminals but they can only be biWired, and not biAmped. Check in the manual to make sure they support biAmp if you are considering going that route.

Ah! Good call invenio ...now willl have to dig into my Spire manual to see if it can be bi-amped! You seem to have a sweet HT setup btw!

Edit:
"The Spire’s PoweredForce™ woofer is internally powered. Because of this, we do not recommend either active or passive bi-amplification" ...

And this is what ML Spires manual says about Bi-wiring:

Bi-wiring the Spire is not necessary. The Spire is provided with a bi-wiring option to allow consumers who already own quality bi-wire cables to use their existing cables. This connection method replaces the jumper clips installed under the binding posts with individual runs of speaker wire from your amplifier. This doubles the signal carrying conductors from the amplifier to the speaker, thus direct-coupling each portion of the crossover to the amplifier.


Even the new Montis (which is the replacement for the Spire) only allows for Single-wire connections and no options for Biwiring so ML must have changed its mind about Biwirig sometime along the way...

 

[invenio]

Ah! Good call invenio ...now willl have to dig into my Spire manual to see if it can be bi-amped! You seem to have a sweet HT setup btw!

Edit:
"The Spire’s PoweredForce™ woofer is internally powered. Because of this, we do not recommend either active or passive bi-amplification" ...

And this is what ML Spires manual says about Bi-wiring:

Bi-wiring the Spire is not necessary. The Spire is provided with a bi-wiring option to allow consumers who already own quality bi-wire cables to use their existing cables. This connection method replaces the jumper clips installed under the binding posts with individual runs of speaker wire from your amplifier. This doubles the signal carrying conductors from the amplifier to the speaker, thus direct-coupling each portion of the crossover to the amplifier.

It's a good thing you looked it up! Yeah, so stay away from the biamping. You still may consider biwire vs single wire. There is debate on whether biwiring will improve the sound. If you have the oppertunity to test it out, then do so, but you should probably be ok with single wire as well.

 

[dmusoke]

It's a good thing you looked it up! Yeah, so stay away from the biamping. You still may consider biwire vs single wire. There is debate on whether biwiring will improve the sound. If you have the oppertunity to test it out, then do so, but you should probably be ok with single wire as well.

Yeah ... see the update to my post above about the Montis ...

 

[invenio]

Yeah ... see the update to my post above about the Montis ...

Frankly I'm not surprised. Once again, biwire vs single wire is "highly" controversial. I would not go out of your way to spend a lot of extra money for biwiring (even though that is what I use). However, if you get a good deal on high quality cable that happens to be biwire, I would not shy away from that either.

 

[dmusoke]

Frankly I'm not surprised. Once again, biwire vs single wire is "highly" controversial. I would not go out of your way to spend a lot of extra money for biwiring (even though that is what I use). However, if you get a good deal on high quality cable that happens to be biwire, I would not shy away from that either.

Here here!!!

 

[roberto]

We are talking two different things. The models of ML that are self powered woofer, you do not need to be bi-wired. There is no sound benefit. The impedance of the bass circuit of these models, (Vantage, Ethos, Spire, Montis, Purity and Summits) circa around 4000 ohms, and the main amplifier of the sound system, does not read this, it only sends the low frequency information, but uses no power to drive the bass info. We all know that the bass takes a lot of power energy from our amp, right? On the other hand, we have the models like Vista, Theos, Ascent, Prodigy, Odyssey, etc, that are not bass powered, and here is where we can take the advantage of the bi-wiring. Your ears can tell the difference for sure. You will get what I said before. Now, as a general rule, use good quality cable, not the most expensive. Out there are great value cables, like DHLabs, Blue Jacket, Nordost, Kimber, Harmonic Tech, Tara Labs, Audio Quest, Oval, JPS, Wire Word to name a few, and from all, you can find some right cable for your budget. Cables are a matter of liking. Copper is great for bass, and silver is great for highs and detail. I do like silver through my CLXs. You can use the cables as a tonal balance for your system. To me, the cables are better than the most expensive equalizer. Always use heavy gauge on the cables for speakers. Happy listening!

 

[dmusoke]

We are talking two different things. The models of ML that are self powered woofer, you do not need to be bi-wired. There is no sound benefit. The impedance of the bass circuit of these models, (Vantage, Ethos, Spire, Montis, Purity and Summits) circa around 4000 ohms, and the main amplifier of the sound system, does not read this, it only sends the low frequency information, but uses no power to drive the bass info. We all know that the bass takes a lot of power energy from our amp, right? On the other hand, we have the models like Vista, Theos, Ascent, Prodigy, Odyssey, etc, that are not bass powered, and here is where we can take the advantage of the bi-wiring. Your ears can tell the difference for sure. You will get what I said before. Now, as a general rule, use good quality cable, not the most expensive. Out there are great value cables, like DHLabs, Blue Jacket, Nordost, Kimber, Harmonic Tech, Tara Labs, Audio Quest, Oval, JPS, Wire Word to name a few, and from all, you can find some right cable for your budget. Cables are a matter of liking. Copper is great for bass, and silver is great for highs and detail. I do like silver through my CLXs. You can use the cables as a tonal balance for your system. To me, the cables are better than the most expensive equalizer. Always use heave gauge on the cables for speakers. Happy listening!

Good word Roberto!

 

[dmusoke]

Roberto:

You say the input impedance of the woofer circuit is 4Kohms. But my Spires says its 4 ohms. Who is correct?