Why We need Audiophiles..

[Polarbear]

You may like this other Mikey-related blog article...

http://blog.stereophile.com/stephenmejias/a_visit_to_mikeys_and_the_glamorous_side_of_publishing/

PS Have he and Dustin Hoffman ever been seen in the same room?!

 

[JonFo]

Oh come on Jon, isn't that sort of like the pot calling the kettle black?

I mean, I know you don't believe in differences in cables, and you prefer digital to analog, but the fact is that you and Mr. Fremmer are using different tools to scratch the same itch (as are most of us here).

Well sure, in the same way that an African witch doctor and a Mayo clinic Medical Doctor are the same in trying to cure their patients

The various Driveracks and software packages and DSP's and Audessey calibrations you write pages on here spell anethma to a lot of audio purists. For instance, I tried the Lyngdorf processor in my system a little over a year ago and while there was a definite change it what I heard, I felt it robbed the very soul out of my music. I absolutely hated what it did to the sound. It doesn't mean that those of you who use such and similar devices are barking up the wrong tree - you're obviously happy with the effect they bring to your systems, and I'm happy for you.

While the tools might not be to everyone’s taste, the results are undeniable (in that there are measurable, significant improvements in temporal and frequency domains), and generally orders of magnitude greater in impact than changes to IC’s or power conditioning.
Part of the problem is that powerful tools are easy to misuse, I know, it’s taken me years to learn how to apply them optimally, and I’m still learning.

When Mr. Fremmer discusses the differences in multi-kilobuck power cords he is at least speaking from a position of his experience with them. I can't talk about those differences because I have not listened to those particular cords myself, so any opinion I might have would be speculation. I do know from my experience that I can hear the differences between many things that many folks would say are impossible to differentiate, so the possibility of these differentiations is apparent to me.

Agreed, a trained hear hears many more things than an untrained one. But usually those things are also measurable (slight frequency variation, slight timing /phase difference, etc.) However, we also need to acknowledge that we have a tremendous ability to perceive things we want to perceive when listening.
There are plenty of studies showing the impacts of perception on listener preference. See Toole p. 357 – 361.
And from a purely scientific and research viewpoint, I’ve yet to see any published hard data showing me a measured impulse response of a piece gear with and without a kilobuck power cord. If anyone has such, I’d love to see it. BTW- if there is no change in an amps impulse response, it can’t possibly sound different.

Folks outside of our circle would say that your system is way over the top, that it would be impossible to justify the time and expense you have invested in your system and room. Personally, I get it. I understand what that pursuit is all about, because I'm on the same journey (although taking a different path). And frankly, Fremmer is one of the trailblazers.

I've had the pleasure of meeting him 3 times at RMAF over the years. One time we had a wonderful conversation about a stunning DaVinci tonearm we were both listening to in the same room at the same time time. Another time we spend about a half hour browsing through the record racks together turning one another on to some of our favorite music. He might be a whack job, but he's my kind of whack job, the guy is absolutely passionate about music - just like you and I, and pretty much everyone else on this site.

Oh, no question the average Joe thinks I’m totally nuts
But when I get to demo it, they are blown away. They still don’t get why it would cost as much, but they like the results.

I even blew away one of our own yesterday, as member Repman and a friend who has been in the audiophile sales biz for many years (dealer for Genesis and Soundlab and other megabuck speakers) came over, and after an hour or so of demo’s on my system, he pronounced it the most capable and clean multichannel system he’d ever heard, and he’s heard hundreds of $50K+ systems.

And yes, ultimately it’s about the music and the experiences one has while listening. Each of us tunes their systems to their likes and preferences, and those will often times be different.
For example, the gentleman I just referred to did not like my system on pure 2ch (as compared to other electrostat 2ch setups) because my room is over damped in the front for his tastes. But then, my design goal was perfect multichannel at the expense of other things.

And please don't take this the wrong way, I love you like a brother and am dying to hear your system someday. I'm just saying that the very fact that we frequent this site and spend the time and money we do on this hobby pretty much puts all of us in the same bracket. Here's to us...long live the audiophools!!

Hey Tim, no sweat, I know where you’re coming from, and I’d love to have you hear my rig for many hours, I’m quite sure it will change your views about the possible value of some of the things I espouse
Plus it would be fun to just chat about the music and what you hear.

 

[repman]

I even blew away one of our own yesterday, as member Repman and a friend who has been in the audiophile sales biz for many years (dealer for Genesis and Soundlab and other megabuck speakers) came over, and after an hour or so of demo’s on my system, he pronounced it the most capable and clean multichannel system he’d ever heard, and he’s heard hundreds of $50K+ systems.

And yes, ultimately it’s about the music and the experiences one has while listening. Each of us tunes their systems to their likes and preferences, and those will often times be different.
For example, the gentleman I just referred to did not like my system on pure 2ch (as compared to other electrostat 2ch setups) because my room is over damped in the front for his tastes. But then, my design goal was perfect multichannel at the expense of other things.

the person Jonathan is mentioning In fact was blown away by the dynamics and bass in the room he had never heard a system go that deep without any bloat. and yes he is a bona fide 2 channel Guy be he heard a few cuts that really had him scratching his head in wonder at 5.1 surround done right

My friend we are speaking about was afraid that he was going to hear what an engineer with measuring devices and electronic gadgetry could do to take the last bit of soul out of the music ( he had heard it before) but he was pleasantly suprised to hear that the musicality was still intact.

If your a tube and vinyl guy you may not like Jonathans room and the sound
but I highly doubt you would walk away unimpressed by the dynamics and bass integration for movies and 5.1 surround music its inspiring

I say to each his own.

trying to change someones personal likes and dislikes is futile we all enjoy this hobby for different reasons and have different goals in how we like our music to sound If someone wants to spend 2K on a power cord because they can hear a difference I say go for it

Me trying to convince him he cant hear a difference by the specs will never convince him

As they say to each his own Im gonna go listen to my mediocre system and enjoy the Hell out of it!!!

 

[MiTT]

And from a purely scientific and research viewpoint, I’ve yet to see any published hard data showing me a measured impulse response of a piece gear with and without a kilobuck power cord. If anyone has such, I’d love to see it. BTW- if there is no change in an amps impulse response, it can’t possibly sound different.

While not quite the exact data you're looking for, this is a very interesting read comparing just the two top end powercords offered by PS Audio...

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?p=922660#

What this shows is that there are indeed measureable differences between the two powercords as indicated in the table at the bottom of the page. But what does that mean? I just don't think measurements are the be all and end all of what we experience in music. I don't think we know all of the perameters that encompass the variety, nuance, mood, sweep etc. of MUSIC. I don't listen to test tones. It's sort of like saying that there is no such thing as art - only a photograph can represent a recreation of a person, thing, event. Figurative art is a very poor substitute, and non-figurative is obviously an abasement. But where would we be without art?

(You're married to an excellent non-figuritive artist Jon - I'd love to hear her contribution to the conversation.)

 

[Bernard]

Tim, I should point out that you are straying dangerously close to reopening the infamous "magic dots" discussion

 

[MiTT]

Tim, I should point out that you are straying dangerously close to reopening the infamous "magic dots" discussion

Ah yes (sigh), I suppose you are correct Bernard, as these sorts of discussions are wont to do. (That "Magic Dot thread" was awfully fun though you have to admit.)

I'll add though that I'm very sure Jon and I could enjoy the debate and still sit down to a good feast together while listening to either of our systems afterward. Jon is a true gentleman, as honest and open a man as you're likely to find. I'm glad to say I've met him and know him even fleetingly.

The point I was trying to get back to is that regardless of which road you travel down, most if not all of us here are bitten by this music (or movie or both) bug and believe that the investment (both hardware and software) is justified in our lives by the benefits and enrichment that music (and movie - don't want to leave anyone out) reproduction brings into our lives. That's why we're here instead of some porn forum.

Well this is a porn forum, just a different type of porn.

 

[JonFo]

While not quite the exact data you're looking for, this is a very interesting read comparing just the two top end powercords offered by PS Audio...

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?p=922660#

What this shows is that there are indeed measureable differences between the two powercords as indicated in the table at the bottom of the page. But what does that mean? I just don't think measurements are the be all and end all of what we experience in music. I don't think we know all of the perameters that encompass the variety, nuance, mood, sweep etc. of MUSIC. I don't listen to test tones.

Thanks for that link, interesting read. However, the measurements are showing that the higher end power cord did have a reduction in AC harmonics going through it, now the questions is: does that have any effect on the amp or source device it’s connected to?
That’s where end to end impulse measurements would help understand the magnitude of the impact.
Oh, and I do believe in good power, which is why I have over $5K in my balanced power subsystem, precisely to address the kind of harmonic distortions the link was measuring. Due to balanced power in my system, I would not believe a change in power cords would have a measurable impact (as those artifacts are naturally canceled by the balanced nature of the delivery).

But even balanced power aside, I still don’t think the magnitude of the power components identified would have a significant (let alone audible) impact on a well-designed amp.


I agree, measurement do not translate into musical enjoyment per-se. But measurements are key to assembling a good foundation. I’d sure hope the framer that built my house used a good tape measure and a level. But just because the walls are straight and floors level does not translate that I enjoy the home more or less than if one wall is a bit crooked.
Now, if the home were built with no regard to measurements and science, well, I’d sure not want to live in it. Even if it looked ‘cool’

And as I mentioned, many studies show that external factors affect our audio perception. Here’s a snippet:

“So strong is the attachment of “perceived” sound quality to the identity of the product and in sighted tests, listeners substantially ignored easily audible problems associated with loudspeaker location in the room and interactions with different programs.”

In that instance, the listeners had been asked to evaluate sound qualities of the same speaker, unsighted, in two different positions, and they gave it very different ratings. Then the same test is repeated, but sighted, and the differences are now much less.

The above (and many other studies) are why I always rely on objective data before applying any subjective analysis or tweaking. People are notoriously fickle and easily influenced in their qualitative assessments. Myself included.

... It's sort of like saying that there is no such thing as art - only a photograph can represent a recreation of a person, thing, event. Figurative art is a very poor substitute, and non-figurative is obviously an abasement. But where would we be without art?

(You're married to an excellent non-figuritive artist Jon - I'd love to hear her contribution to the conversation.)

I’m not saying there is no art in music system setup. But to say there is no room for measurement is not accurate either.

I did ask the artiste, and she drew an excellent analogy:

When creating a sculpture of a head, one needs to measure and get certain proportions right, but the secret to imbuing ‘soul’ into the sculpture is to then tweak those elements that make it ‘feel’ and resonate with the viewer. Little things, like a slight squint in one eye displaying playfulness, a turn of the lip, etc. all not on the ‘original’ but done to achieve an effect.

But get the height to width proportions wrong, and it starts to look like a caricature and not a beautiful sculpture.

Same thing for music. A computer can play back the score for the Rachmaninoff 2nd with exquisite accuracy, but it’s not much fun to listen to. One of the gifts of a great musician is to know how to vary the timing, intensity and other parameters of the interpretations to evoke an emotional impact.

But If I played the Rach 2nd, my timing is so far off, you’d not want to hear it

Likewise with audio systems and their room interactions. Most are so far off, I can’t stand to hear them. I recognize the music, but it’s buried in the room resonances, the amp THD and other nasties.
Measurements and tools can be applied to improve the situation to the point of where the music is enjoyable. It can then be seasoned to taste with whatever other tweaks one cares to apply to meet one’s own likes.

So I don’t believe all systems need to sound the same, just as I don’t’ want all interpretations of the Rach second to sound like Evgenny Kissin’s interpretation. But I definitely don’t want to hear the 2nd year piano students versions either, artful as it might be

 

[risabet]

Given the level of the equipment he has, it seemed like not a very good room layout for acoustics. I noticed one absorber between the speakers, but nothing else obvious as far as room treatments or positioning. One has to wonder if the system wouldn't sound even better with a well-designed room.

This is also a job for Mikey, not just a place for music. He needs to access and swap out gear on a scale that most of us (Tonepub excepted) probably can't fathom.

There is something in between the speakers and an absorber to the left of the speaker on the door. More important is the fact that we can't see the entire room so we really can't make an informed comment on his treatments or lack of same. Give the guy a break!

I was impressed with the vinyl library...

I'm still drooling:ROFL:

 

[tonepub]

While the tools might not be to everyone’s taste, the results are undeniable (in that there are measurable, significant improvements in temporal and frequency domains), and generally orders of magnitude greater in impact than changes to IC’s or power conditioning.
Part of the problem is that powerful tools are easy to misuse, I know, it’s taken me years to learn how to apply them optimally, and I’m still learning.

Martin Colloms just said "Specifications and measurement results vary infrequently successfully predict sound quality. I measure review gear in hope that I will find an association with observed sound quality, but only rarely am I rewarded. Established measurments can only point to the grosser errors of fact."

Interestingly enough, every one of the top hifi designers I've ever talked to has mirrored this sentiment when the discussion goes to the "measurements vs. perception" topic.

So, what I'm curious about is what do you know that all the best and brightest in the world of hifi that do this for their day job don't?

 

[amey01]

For your typical solid state rectangular solid state box, I have to say those MF Titan's look pretty nice.

They do, don't they?

 

[User211]

So, what I'm curious about is what do you know that all the best and brightest in the world of hifi that do this for their day job don't?

Is this justified? I don't think Jon has ever claimed this. As far as I understand him from his posts, he is mainly interested in room interactions and achieving a flat frequency response, and using test kit and digital equalisation to achieve it. I don't think he has ever said he can measure a piece of kit and tell you how it will sound.

Interestingly, in Hi-Fi News May 2009, Paul Miller (the chap whose test kit measured the Spire's frequency response) states that he does try to do exactly this. "Bringing you the full story" is the title of the article.

And there are measurements that will produce definately identifiable audible results e.g poor S/N ratio, even order distortion harmonics versus odd order. They won't tell you how the amplifier, say, will sound overall, but they can give you clues as to some of it's traits before you listen. The UK hi-fi press has spoken about such things for years.

I'm sure Jon is more than capable of answer your point, but I thought I'd offer some support, even though I personally wouldn't follow his path.

 

[Rich]

This is also a job for Mikey, not just a place for music.

I think this is rather the point. He is a professional. This is his job. Yet, his room appears to be an acoustic nightmare. With windows and doors in awful places, a hodgepodge of acoustic treatments, no bass traps that I can make out in any corner, etc. You are right that we can't see the entire room. But from what I can see, I am not really impressed. There are much better acoustic spaces throughout our member's gallery.

 

[Gordon Gray]

You all better be careful. I installed another eight (8) dots on my windows and was thinking about posting my additional observations.

GG

 

[Gordon]

You all better be careful. I installed another eight (8) dots on my windows and was thinking about posting my additional observations.

GG

This could get interesting! I did not contibute to that infamous thread but I may tempted this time around!

Gordon

 

[risabet]

I think this is rather the point. He is a professional. This is his job. Yet, his room appears to be an acoustic nightmare. With windows and doors in awful places, a hodgepodge of acoustic treatments, no bass traps that I can make out in any corner, etc. You are right that we can't see the entire room. But from what I can see, I am not really impressed. There are much better acoustic spaces throughout our member's gallery.

I have no idea about Fremer's income or wealth but it is not within most of our budgets to custom design a room, i. e. doors and windows will fall where they may and room size was set long before we move in by the designer. Is it possible that a room doesn't need bass traps?

 

[Gordon]

Considering my limited experience, I think every room would benefit by some type of trapping be it HF or LF. It would seem to be the luck of the draw to stumble upon a room which was acoustically sound.

Gordon

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hi risabet,

Depending on the room dimensions and other factors that influence room induced frequency anamolies, I would think that's a distinct possibility.

But then again, I'm not a "techie" and will defer to others who have more experience on this issue.

GG

 

[amey01]

Considering my limited experience, I think every room would benefit by some type of trapping be it HF or LF.

From my limited experience I'd think that trapping would have an effect on every room, but this is dinstinct from actually having a benefit or positive impact.

I mean, you don't see those sort of things in concert halls, do you? Some places are designed to actually harness the reflections, etc and this is what contributes to the sound of the venue.

A listening room is no different - they're great for treating problems in a domestic setting, but in an ideal world you shouldn't need them!

 

[tonepub]

Is this justified? I don't think Jon has ever claimed this. As far as I understand him from his posts, he is mainly interested in room interactions and achieving a flat frequency response, and using test kit and digital equalisation to achieve it. I don't think he has ever said he can measure a piece of kit and tell you how it will sound.

Interestingly, in Hi-Fi News May 2009, Paul Miller (the chap whose test kit measured the Spire's frequency response) states that he does try to do exactly this. "Bringing you the full story" is the title of the article.

And there are measurements that will produce definately identifiable audible results e.g poor S/N ratio, even order distortion harmonics versus odd order. They won't tell you how the amplifier, say, will sound overall, but they can give you clues as to some of it's traits before you listen. The UK hi-fi press has spoken about such things for years.

I'm sure Jon is more than capable of answer your point, but I thought I'd offer some support, even though I personally wouldn't follow his path.

It's nothing against JonFo personally, but rather the measurement thing in general.

I haven't been able to pin down one designer that has been able to tell me that measurements correlate to anything terribly meaningful in terms of sound.

I have heard a number of the best designers in the industry tell me that they can hear things that their instruments can't reveal.

And as far as the 4db diff on the Spires, I stick to my guns that if you had a pair of speakers that were 4db off of each other, they would sound so grossly mismatched that anyone with NO training whatsoever would be able to hear that.

So, until I talk to at least a handful of audio designers that can tell me that the measurements really correspond to the actual sound of a piece of gear, I remain unconvinced.

 

[RichTeer]

Little lights

Does anyone recognise the little goosneck lights Mikey has on the two turntables in the photos in that article? I need something like that, but haven't found anything suitable.